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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Speaking of pollution which idiots are burning all the cars in Paris and melting the ice caps two years sooner?

Truck Drivers?
Neo-Nazi's ?
Antifa?
Muslamics?
Soccer Hooligans?
Gays?
Rainbow coalition of all of the above? :-?


You forgot the U.S. Military...

:-"


I didn't forget, that the U.S. has no military bases in France..... III/O

but nice deflection

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:24 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman. :(


Funnily enough it's on the French thread.

Also we don't really do outrage in OP.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Outrage outraged itself outta here years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:35 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
Outrage outraged itself outta here years ago.


Quite.

Well, unless irony, sarcasm and satire = outrage, in which case we are in a permanent state of outrage.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:53 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman. :(


Funnily enough it's on the French thread.

Also we don't really do outrage in OP.


Thought that thread was all about retro-fur... :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman. :(


Funnily enough it's on the French thread.

Also we don't really do outrage in OP.


Also another nice dodge.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:55 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman. :(


Funnily enough it's on the French thread.

Also we don't really do outrage in OP.


Also another nice dodge.


Eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:01 am 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Holyman wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Speaking of pollution which idiots are burning all the cars in Paris and melting the ice caps two years sooner?

Truck Drivers?
Neo-Nazi's ?
Antifa?
Muslamics?
Soccer Hooligans?
Gays?
Rainbow coalition of all of the above?


You forgot the U.S. Military...


I didn't forget, that the U.S. has no military bases in France..... III/O

but nice deflection


Ah, yes. More of a misunderstanding than an attempt to deflect.

Sorry. Thought I was reading a list of groups whose activities produce a lot of GHG's... I should have read beyond "Truck Drivers".

It's a good job you're able to make sure I don't get away with shit like that Midnight!

O{DC}O

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:01 am 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also, where is the outrage on this forum for the behavior of the French Yellow Vests?

Burning up cars and shit.

Vandalizing war memorials.

Tear gassing woman and children.

I mean shit, you got someone driving through a crowd of protesters, just like in Charlottesville and killing a woman.


Umm, I suppose the lack of outrage probably stems from experience, understanding, and not relying solely on the Media’s framing of a particular situation.

It’s important to always keep things in context.

See, the Mouvement des Gilets Jaunes (“the Yellow Vests Movement”) began as a protest against the way that French Government policies seemed to be favouring the wealthy, and harming the Middle and Working Classes – particularly those living in rural areas of France.

Sound familiar?

I mean… They’re not wrong on that score. ‘Cos exactly the same thing is happening all over the Western World: hyper-rich “Players” dictating policy to the politicians they sponsor, which has resulted in massive and still rising income inequality.

It’s no different in the US, UK, Canada, Australia &c.

But the French are famously (notoriously?) resistant to being fucked in the arse by their politicians, unlike their more submissive Anglo-Saxon counterparts. And what started as an online petition back in May, had by October this year become the inspiration for action that was more direct.

On 17th November, more than 300,000 Frenchies took part in protests all across France; and they were joined by protesters in Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands.

It was on the 17th November that a 63-year old protestor was run over by a passing motorist, and a non-participating motorcyclist was killed after being struck by a non-participating van trying to get around a barricade.

After four days of these protests (including looting and rioting in the French overseas region of Réunion), a further twenty people (including 3 police officers) had been seriously injured. Which given how many people were protesting in so many different places… Doesn’t seem *THAT* high a toll.

On 24 November, more than 100,000 French protested again, all over France. In Paris, 8,000 protestors turned up… And Paris was the only place that there was any violence.

There were further protests this weekend past, with violence breaking out again in Paris. A non-protesting 80-year old Algerian woman was killed in Marseille, by a police-fired tear gas canister.

Protests in Italy and the Netherlands passed with little or no violence (and hence were not reported upon). Things did get noisy in Brussels, but with only 60 arrests for public disorder offences, no telegenic images of rioting, and no real injuries, this also went unreported.

An end-of-November opinion poll in France reported that 84% of French people supported the “Gilets Jaunes”.

A second poll conducted after this weekend’s protests, reported that 72% of French people still supported the protests; with 85% opposed to the violence.

Because just about everyone in France is fucked off with the way their Government is treating them.

Macron tried to be France’s Obama. But whilst the French *CAN* be optimistic and hopeful, they’re nowhere near as gullible as Americans, or as apathetic as the British. They have a very strong History with genuine Citizen-led Revolutions (as opposed to the type of Merchant-led “Revolution” popular on the other side of the Atlantic).

As for the violence…

Well, the Media and politicians are *BOUND* to focus in on that, aren’t they?

For the Media, violence is much more telegenic and “Newsworthy”, than peaceful protests and non-violent direct action.

And for the politicians… Anything to steer the dialogue away from the fact that the protestors have a very solid and rational basis for their protests.

The French Government hasn’t suspended the fuel tax increase because of the violence…

…It has suspended the fuel tax increase because three-quarters of French voters support the protestors.

That’s democracy, that is.

=D>

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:25 pm 
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I'm confused...no surprise. But isn't the gas tax that everyone is protesting supposed to be used to help the environment? When the French rise up to protest these changes and have them cancelled it's "democracy at work". But when the elected officials in the US say our people don't want more taxes and don't impose them we say they are being anti-environmental. Isn't this a bit of a double standard? Isn't what's happening in the US really democracy at work?

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:54 pm 
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tgrant wrote:
I'm confused...no surprise. But isn't the gas tax that everyone is protesting supposed to be used to help the environment? When the French rise up to protest these changes and have them cancelled it's "democracy at work". But when the elected officials in the US say our people don't want more taxes and don't impose them we say they are being anti-environmental. Isn't this a bit of a double standard? Isn't what's happening in the US really democracy at work?


Yes - I tried to make that point yesterday.

Funny how enviro's think people would be totally cool paying higher taxes for a lesser quality of life - believing it is just politicians who are in the pocket of "big-oil" preventing more environmental regulations.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:49 am 
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tgrant wrote:
I'm confused...no surprise. But isn't the gas tax that everyone is protesting supposed to be used to help the environment? When the French rise up to protest these changes and have them cancelled it's "democracy at work". But when the elected officials in the US say our people don't want more taxes and don't impose them we say they are being anti-environmental. Isn't this a bit of a double standard? Isn't what's happening in the US really democracy at work?


That doesn’t seem very likely…

Anyhoo, I think as usual, the Media is responsible for your (and everyone else’s) confusion.

Here’s a different narrative to anything you’d read in a paper or see on those rapid-fire, “Rolling News” broadcasts.

In the Beginning…

There was a French woman who felt that the rises in fuel tax being proposed by the French Government, unfairly disadvantaged French people living in rural France, who absolutely rely on their vehicles for their work, and for running about generally… And who don’t earn the same kind of money as Parisians (and other non-specific Metropolitan types).

And so this woman started an on-line petition in May 2018, inviting other Frenchies to join with her in objecting to the proposed rise in fuel tax.

Quote:
Sidebar 1

In a democracy, people are allowed to think different things, and believe in different ideas.

So whilst some people in a democracy think that raising duty on fuel will disincentivise unnecessary vehicle usage; other people in the same democracy are allowed to think that whilst this is all well and good for people living in towns and cities with excellent Mass Transit Systems, it doesn’t work so well for those who have no alternatives to using their own vehicles to get around.

And it is the job of a democratic Government to balance such conflicting views – for better or for worse.


Within a few months, something like 300,000 signatures had been collected for this woman’s online petition. And that (apparently) is enough these days to declare a “Movement”.

This Movement then had the idea of organising co-ordinated protests throughout France, still at this stage to protest against the proposed hike in fuel tax. And since all French car drivers are required by law to carry a high-visibility safety jacket in their car, it was decided that the wearing of these vests would be a good way to identify the supporters of the Movement. And this in turn gave the Movement its name.

OK, so…

Once the Movement became, umm, highly visible… Other Frenchies who weren’t particularly fussed about the proposed fuel tax rise, saw the Yellow-Jacket Movement as an opportunity to register and protest their general dissatisfaction with a number of French Government policies, and general disaffection with President Macron’s “Hopey-Changey” stuff…

Which is the stage at which the Yellow-Jacket Movement became about more than simply protesting the fuel tax increase.

Quote:
Sidebar 2

Popular Protest Movements (vital in any society that wants to call itself democratic) usually begin with a single issue, then expand to include any number of other perceived grievances, and often culminate in a general displeasure at “The Way Things Are”.

The current President of the United States of America tapped into populist resentment with the U.S. Political Industry (“Beltway Insiders”/”Ivory Towers”/”The Swamp” &c.) and the generally deplorable treatment of most U.S. Citizens by “their [sic]” government.

Same thing with Brexit: what started as a single issue about membership of the E.U., soon encompassed all manner of other grievances, especially from those who have no real understanding of what E.U. Membership actually entails.

For example, I’m not a xenophobe, nativist, or economically insecure. And yet, I voted “Leave” in the Brexit Referendum. What’s *THAT* all about?

Well… If instead of just the two options, “Remain” or “Leave”, there had been a third option: “Leave because… [fill in reasons below, using no more than 500 characters]”... Well, I’m sure you can guess which of the three options I’d have gone for.


So by the time all the Yellow-Jacketeers hit the streets in November, the Movement had become about so much more than just the proposed fuel tax increase.

And of course, there’s never any shortage of young men with too much time on their hands, who see the opportunity in a popular protest movement, to advance their own personal circumstances, with a bit of rioting and looting.

Quote:
Sidebar 3

Generally speaking, Governments don’t *NEED* to employ agents provocateur to stir up violence during popular protests. There are always plenty of useful idiots prepared to do same under their own recognisance.

If and when Governments ever did/do deliberately provoke violence to delegitimise a popular protest movement, they certainly wouldn’t be foolish enough to leave any trails they cannot plausibly deny.

So either way, not much point speculating about whether a government may or may not have deliberately provoked violence during a popular protest.

What *IS* undeniable, of course, is that howsoever violence originates during a protest, politicians under pressure from those protests *WILL* use any violence to delegitimise the protestors’ complaints.


So technically speaking, that *SHOULD* have meant that the French Government could ignore the protests and press on with the rise in Fuel Tax.

However, Emmanuel Macron and his ministers are not as stupid as the people who voted for him.

The French Government quickly recognised that the Yellow-Jacket Movement could very easily become like the Five Star Movement in Italy, Podemos in Spain, or Syriza in Greece.

Or indeed (and worse), like the Trumpette Movement in the United States.

And so the French Government calculated that it would be better to postpone the fuel tax rise, in order to, uh, “draw the sting” out of the Yellow-Jacket Movement.



All of which could and should have been easily (if less prosaically) explained to you by your local Newspaper of Record, and/or whichever “News” network least challenges your preconceptions about the World.

However, without an emphasis on (and visual “evidence [sic]” of) the despicable and unwarranted violence instigated by this Citizen’s Movement, and with its reliance on self-sustaining and coherent logic, my explanation wouldn’t help sell any products advertised in newspapers or on television.

So you’re unlikely to read an explanation like the above, anywhere but here.

B-)

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:
The U.S. Government’s scientific review board produced a report that evidenced how the effects of Climate Change are *ALREADY* costing the U.S. Government a lot money to have to deal with.


I'd like to see some examples of that cost and then compared to the cost to the average consumer who would have to reduce AND pay more for their energy needs. Particularly the effects on the 3rd world who are just now getting to 2nd world living conditions.


So, uh, have *YOU* read the report that your President so blithely dismissed Foota?

Or are you relying on Trump to tell you what and what not to believe?

https://nca2018.globalchange.gov/

Quote:
In the absence of significant global mitigation action and regional adaptation efforts, rising temperatures, sea level rise, and changes in extreme events are expected to increasingly disrupt and damage critical infrastructure and property, labor productivity, and the vitality of our communities. Regional economies and industries that depend on natural resources and favorable climate conditions, such as agriculture, tourism, and fisheries, are vulnerable to the growing impacts of climate change. Rising temperatures are projected to reduce the efficiency of power generation while increasing energy demands, resulting in higher electricity costs. The impacts of climate change beyond our borders are expected to increasingly affect our trade and economy, including import and export prices and U.S. businesses with overseas operations and supply chains. Some aspects of our economy may see slight near-term improvements in a modestly warmer world. However, the continued warming that is projected to occur without substantial and sustained reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions is expected to cause substantial net damage to the U.S. economy throughout this century, especially in the absence of increased adaptation efforts. With continued growth in emissions at historic rates, annual losses in some economic sectors are projected to reach hundreds of billions of dollars by the end of the century—more than the current gross domestic product (GDP) of many U.S. states.


See that bit I’ve bolded?

It’s the bit where these sciencey-type people are pointing out something rather obvious:

As temperatures rise, people use more energy to keep cool.

(I’ll let you do the rest of the maths.)

:!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:00 pm 
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I was asking for the examples of pain and costs that are supposedly *ALREADY* occurring to the US (or anywhere) due to climate change.

I haven't heard of any major cities being drowned by rising oceans. My coastline in SoCal hasn't changed in the 20+ years I've lived here. Hurricane landfall frequency is lower now than it was in the early 1900's.

I suppose you can try to blame California wildfires on climate change as opposed to Government incompetence. But we've already beaten that dead horse.

You could also point to glacier melt, but we are still coming out of a an ice age where the place I was born was under a mile of ice 10,000 years ago.

Face it, people are not willing to accept additional pain of higher costs and taxes until the pain they are trying to address (Climate Change) actually causes some pain to justify the costs. Just like America's bankrupt entitlement system. We won't get reforms (i.e. paying more into entitlements and getting less than promised) until the shit hits the fan and we are left with no choice through bankruptcy proceedings.

People will naturally kick the can down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:28 pm 
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Foota wrote:
I was asking for the examples of pain and costs that are supposedly *ALREADY* occurring to the US (or anywhere) due to climate change.

I haven't heard of any major cities being drowned by rising oceans. My coastline in SoCal hasn't changed in the 20+ years I've lived here. Hurricane landfall frequency is lower now than it was in the early 1900's.

I suppose you can try to blame California wildfires on climate change as opposed to Government incompetence. But we've already beaten that dead horse.

You could also point to glacier melt, but we are still coming out of a an ice age where the place I was born was under a mile of ice 10,000 years ago.

Face it, people are not willing to accept additional pain of higher costs and taxes until the pain they are trying to address (Climate Change) actually causes some pain to justify the costs. Just like America's bankrupt entitlement system. We won't get reforms (i.e. paying more into entitlements and getting less than promised) until the shit hits the fan and we are left with no choice through bankruptcy proceedings.

People will naturally kick the can down the road.




A stitch in time saves nine......



Why wait till things get really fucked? It's happening whether you believe it or not....


Bloody fool.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:06 pm 
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barcelona wrote:



A stitch in time saves nine......



Why wait till things get really fucked? It's happening whether you believe it or not....


Bloody fool.


Because the proposed "medicine" will cause ALOT of pain to billions of people around the globe........particularly the most poor and vulnerable who can't handle increased cost to food and energy.

Kind of like giving a patient very painful and expensive chemotherapy and then realizing his cancer tumor was benign and should have been left alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Foota wrote:
I was asking for the examples of pain and costs that are supposedly *ALREADY* occurring to the US (or anywhere) due to climate change.


I know.

And I gave you those examples in that comprehensive report your Congress commissioned.

But rather than copy and paste the entire report into this thread, I just picked out a relevant passage from the Executive Summary.

Do you think that if you ever bothered to actually read anything longer than a Fox News headline, you might have a more informed view on these matters.

Because your position basically comes down to:

I haven't read and won't read any information at all about the effects that human activities are currently having on the Planet's Environment; therefore such things must not be happening.

I mean... That's right, isn't it?

It's not like you've read loads and loads of scientific material postulating theories on Anthropogenic Climate Change, and *THEN* read even more material disproving those theories, is it?

You have read very, very little (if anything) about Climate Change, because the politicians and media you follow have told you that it's basically just a hoax.

I'm correct, aren't I.

Foota wrote:
I haven't heard of any major cities being drowned by rising oceans. My coastline in SoCal hasn't changed in the 20+ years I've lived here. Hurricane landfall frequency is lower now than it was in the early 1900's.


To be honest Foota, I think the smart money around here is on your *STILL* denying things are going down the shitter, even when you *DO* hear of cities (major or minor) being drowned by rising oceans.

>&8~

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Because the proposed "medicine" will cause ALOT of pain to billions of people around the globe........particularly the most poor and vulnerable who can't handle increased cost to food and energy.


Read the fucking report Foota.

The Planet is *ALREADY* sick... Already suffering from the effects of Climate Change... And very large numbers of human beings are already suffering the painful consequences.

But if the U.S. Government acts now, it can ease that pain, save lots of money, and generate vibrant new sectors in the U.S. Economy.

*PLEASE* start reading stuff Foota.

Learning is *SO* important.

[-O<

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

Read the fucking report Foota.

The Planet is *ALREADY* sick... Already suffering from the effects of Climate Change... And very large numbers of human beings are already suffering the painful consequences.


Only got so many hours in the day and have read enough climate change garbage over the years to make my head spin. I'm pretty busy working real environmental issues like clean water.

Surely you can provide a sentence or two of real honest to God human suffering caused by climate change occurring TODAY. What you previously quoted from the report were just more projected forecasts.

Holyman wrote:
But if the U.S. Government acts now, it can ease that pain, save lots of money, and generate vibrant new sectors in the U.S. Economy.

[-O<


America is already leading the entire "Civilized WorldTM" in carbon reduction. Time for China, India, Russia........and France to get busy.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Who are the biggest emitters?

2018's top ten has China on top, followed by the US and the EU as a whole region. After these three come India, Russia, Japan, Germany, Iran, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Canada.
A booming economy has seen India's emissions grow by 6.3%. Renewables are growing fast but from a low base.
The five countries contributing most to growth in global emissions outside of China, the US, the EU and India over the last decade are Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Iraq and South Korea.

Bbc.

So you're the second largest polluter.........

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Holyman
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I think it's a slightly different ranking when done on a per capita basis...

You know, what with China having five times the number of citizens than the U.S.

1.5 billion Chinese are only *JUST* producing more CO2 than 350 million Americans...

:-$

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 am 
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Major
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Holyman wrote:

1.5 billion Chinese are only *JUST* producing more CO2 than 350 million Americans...

:-$


And America has a larger economy and GDP than China with just about 25% of the population.


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