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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:21 pm 
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barcelona wrote:
Bums and illegal????

How about the poor who can't afford it. How about the folks who have become bankrupt?


...and the people whose doctors got them needlessly hooked on opioids in the first place, because money?


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 pm 
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barcelona wrote:
Bums and illegal????


How about the poor who can't afford it. How about the folks who have become bankrupt?


You lack empathy .. You have zero.


Shameful. A human is a human is a human.


Your empathy is doing more harm than good.

We have more than enough data to prove this out.

Just in my State alone, big cities like San Francisco, Los Angeles, Oakland, San Diego are turning to absolute shit with an explosion of bum camps, crime, shit on the streets and diseases because we are encouraging drug addicts to live on the streets and give them free needles.

Unemployment is at historical lows. Wages are rising faster than ever (especially at the lower end). How on earth can we see such a huge growth in bums on the streets unless it is simply mush-minded Progressives (with empathy!) not enforcing basic quality of life crimes?


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:36 pm 
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Foota wrote:
How on earth can we see such a huge growth in bums on the streets unless it is simply mush-minded Progressives (with empathy!) not enforcing basic quality of life crimes?


I think it may have something to do with the fact that these people don't work and are unlikely ever to, for various reasons. If you want them out of sight, you should support building housing that isn't $800,000 shiny condos.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:40 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
Foota wrote:
How on earth can we see such a huge growth in bums on the streets unless it is simply mush-minded Progressives (with empathy!) not enforcing basic quality of life crimes?


I think it may have something to do with the fact that these people don't work and are unlikely ever to, for various reasons. If you want them out of sight, you should support building housing that isn't $800,000 shiny condos.


We can't even do that in California - because the Progressive let the Unions force Prevailing Wage on any new construction - so it costs $800K to build bum condos.

Are you starting to see how Progressive literally fuck everything up in big cities?

You can only try to vote them out, or flee to the suburbs that aren't run by retarded Progressives.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:45 pm 
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Aren't most 'bums' people with serious mental or psychological issues?

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:58 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Aren't most 'bums' people with serious mental or psychological issues?


and deadbeat black fathers


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 pm 
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I think there's a huge amount of them that have psychological problems, substance abuse problems, or both. I honestly don't think that many of them are down on their luck families. There's actually a social safety net that helps with these things, and in fact in my area there apparently enough beds for all the homeless, but those facilities come with rules, and the homeless people either don't want to follow the rules or their mental health issues prevent them from seeking help.

Back half a century ago all these people would have been institutionalized, involuntarily and given proper treatment.

The US de-institutionalized mental health starting in the 1960s, breakthroughs and medication that could treat a lot of symptoms of mental health meant people no longer had to be in prison and could basically be reintroduced into society. Unfortunately many of the mental health issues have the symptom, that once you get off your medication you don't want to get back onto it. Hence people eventually getting out of balance in becoming totally dysfunctional, with no system in place to assist them in overcoming these issues.

Not that the mental health system was ever that great, there are a ton of horror stories about the treatment of patients and the conditions and mental health institutions. Plus you have things like people committing relatives against their will, and those people being kept in mental health facilities indefinitely based on quack doctors who had absolute authority.

Problem is our current system, which is like the free range mental health patients, apparently believes that it's more humane to let these people run free and leave them to their own devices.

I think that the emphasis on mental health in the US has been completely ignored by politicians on both sides who don't want to try to tackle it. It's easier just to slap fake Band-Aids over the problem and then pretend it's not there or that they actually did something.

There needs to be a system in place where we go out and humanely get these people the treatment they need so that they can be functional members of society. In extreme cases when that's not possible then put them in long-term care facilities.

I think this also goes hand in hand with the war on drugs, that rather than treating drug abuse as a crime we need to treat it as a public health issue. It'd be way cheaper to mandate these people go to drug rehab programs then keep them locked in penitentiaries with other criminals and guarded full-time.

And obviously all this would cost an ass ton of money, although I think drug treatment is a much cheaper alternative to imprisonment, and this is all much easier said than done.

On top of this this is extremely difficult balancing act judging the person's welfare versus their civil liberties and trying to treat them in a fair, logical and humane manner.

I would also imagine if it's the longer the person is on the street the more difficult it becomes to rehabilitate that person, and give them some semi-balance of a normal life.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:08 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
I think there's a huge amount of them that have psychological problems, substance abuse problems, or both. I honestly don't think that many of them are down on their luck families. There's actually a social safety net that helps with these things, and in fact in my area there apparently enough beds for all the homeless, but those facilities come with rules, and the homeless people either don't want to follow the rules or their mental health issues prevent them from seeking help.

Back half a century ago all these people would have been institutionalized, involuntarily and given proper treatment.

The US de-institutionalized mental health starting in the 1960s, breakthroughs and medication that could treat a lot of symptoms of mental health meant people no longer had to be in prison and could basically be reintroduced into society. Unfortunately many of the mental health issues have the symptom, that once you get off your medication you don't want to get back onto it. Hence people eventually getting out of balance in becoming totally dysfunctional, with no system in place to assist them in overcoming these issues.

Not that the mental health system was ever that great, there are a ton of horror stories about the treatment of patients and the conditions and mental health institutions. Plus you have things like people committing relatives against their will, and those people being kept in mental health facilities indefinitely based on quack doctors who had absolute authority.

Problem is our current system, which is like the free range mental health patients, apparently believes that it's more humane to let these people run free and leave them to their own devices.

I think that the emphasis on mental health in the US has been completely ignored by politicians on both sides who don't want to try to tackle it. It's easier just to slap fake Band-Aids over the problem and then pretend it's not there or that they actually did something.

There needs to be a system in place where we go out and humanely get these people the treatment they need so that they can be functional members of society. In extreme cases when that's not possible then put them in long-term care facilities.

I think this also goes hand in hand with the war on drugs, that rather than treating drug abuse as a crime we need to treat it as a public health issue. It'd be way cheaper to mandate these people go to drug rehab programs then keep them locked in penitentiaries with other criminals and guarded full-time.

And obviously all this would cost an ass ton of money, although I think drug treatment is a much cheaper alternative to imprisonment, and this is all much easier said than done.

On top of this this is extremely difficult balancing act judging the person's welfare versus their civil liberties and trying to treat them in a fair, logical and humane manner.

I would also imagine if it's the longer the person is on the street the more difficult it becomes to rehabilitate that person, and give them some semi-balance of a normal life.


This is far too sensible. You should adopt Foota's vague "tough love" approach instead. Where's your love for freedom?


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:25 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
I think there's a huge amount of them that have psychological problems, substance abuse problems, or both. I honestly don't think that many of them are down on their luck families. There's actually a social safety net that helps with these things, and in fact in my area there apparently enough beds for all the homeless, but those facilities come with rules, and the homeless people either don't want to follow the rules or their mental health issues prevent them from seeking help.

Back half a century ago all these people would have been institutionalized, involuntarily and given proper treatment.

The US de-institutionalized mental health starting in the 1960s, breakthroughs and medication that could treat a lot of symptoms of mental health meant people no longer had to be in prison and could basically be reintroduced into society. Unfortunately many of the mental health issues have the symptom, that once you get off your medication you don't want to get back onto it. Hence people eventually getting out of balance in becoming totally dysfunctional, with no system in place to assist them in overcoming these issues.

Not that the mental health system was ever that great, there are a ton of horror stories about the treatment of patients and the conditions and mental health institutions. Plus you have things like people committing relatives against their will, and those people being kept in mental health facilities indefinitely based on quack doctors who had absolute authority.

Problem is our current system, which is like the free range mental health patients, apparently believes that it's more humane to let these people run free and leave them to their own devices.

I think that the emphasis on mental health in the US has been completely ignored by politicians on both sides who don't want to try to tackle it. It's easier just to slap fake Band-Aids over the problem and then pretend it's not there or that they actually did something.

There needs to be a system in place where we go out and humanely get these people the treatment they need so that they can be functional members of society. In extreme cases when that's not possible then put them in long-term care facilities.

I think this also goes hand in hand with the war on drugs, that rather than treating drug abuse as a crime we need to treat it as a public health issue. It'd be way cheaper to mandate these people go to drug rehab programs then keep them locked in penitentiaries with other criminals and guarded full-time.

And obviously all this would cost an ass ton of money, although I think drug treatment is a much cheaper alternative to imprisonment, and this is all much easier said than done.

On top of this this is extremely difficult balancing act judging the person's welfare versus their civil liberties and trying to treat them in a fair, logical and humane manner.

I would also imagine if it's the longer the person is on the street the more difficult it becomes to rehabilitate that person, and give them some semi-balance of a normal life.


I'd go with much of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:32 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:

This is far too sensible. You should adopt Foota's vague "tough love" approach instead. Where's your love for freedom?


I think involuntarily institutionalizing drug addicts and mentals would be considered "tough love".

Are you cool with that?

I don't think handing out free needles and decriminalizing drug use in the public is effective "drug rehab". It is just enablement and the homeless and drug problem has exploded after a decade of these foolish "empathetic" policies.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:33 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
I think there's a huge amount of them that have psychological problems, substance abuse problems, or both. I honestly don't think that many of them are down on their luck families. There's actually a social safety net that helps with these things, and in fact in my area there apparently enough beds for all the homeless, but those facilities come with rules, and the homeless people either don't want to follow the rules or their mental health issues prevent them from seeking help.

Back half a century ago all these people would have been institutionalized, involuntarily and given proper treatment.

The US de-institutionalized mental health starting in the 1960s, breakthroughs and medication that could treat a lot of symptoms of mental health meant people no longer had to be in prison and could basically be reintroduced into society. Unfortunately many of the mental health issues have the symptom, that once you get off your medication you don't want to get back onto it. Hence people eventually getting out of balance in becoming totally dysfunctional, with no system in place to assist them in overcoming these issues.

Not that the mental health system was ever that great, there are a ton of horror stories about the treatment of patients and the conditions and mental health institutions. Plus you have things like people committing relatives against their will, and those people being kept in mental health facilities indefinitely based on quack doctors who had absolute authority.

Problem is our current system, which is like the free range mental health patients, apparently believes that it's more humane to let these people run free and leave them to their own devices.

I think that the emphasis on mental health in the US has been completely ignored by politicians on both sides who don't want to try to tackle it. It's easier just to slap fake Band-Aids over the problem and then pretend it's not there or that they actually did something.

There needs to be a system in place where we go out and humanely get these people the treatment they need so that they can be functional members of society. In extreme cases when that's not possible then put them in long-term care facilities.

I think this also goes hand in hand with the war on drugs, that rather than treating drug abuse as a crime we need to treat it as a public health issue. It'd be way cheaper to mandate these people go to drug rehab programs then keep them locked in penitentiaries with other criminals and guarded full-time.

And obviously all this would cost an ass ton of money, although I think drug treatment is a much cheaper alternative to imprisonment, and this is all much easier said than done.

On top of this this is extremely difficult balancing act judging the person's welfare versus their civil liberties and trying to treat them in a fair, logical and humane manner.

I would also imagine if it's the longer the person is on the street the more difficult it becomes to rehabilitate that person, and give them some semi-balance of a normal life.


I'd go with much of that.


You should be going with all of it :D

But from the popular media ive consumed I would think that the past healthcare system, mental institutions and asylums in the UK were much the same, with people being committed against their will for indefinite stays and that they're all types of horror stories and abuse.

And the problem with mental health treatment is often it takes very expensive experts, it's not a science, although it strives to be there's just an endless litany of completely garbage mental health theories that were accepted in the past as cutting edge treatment.

So couple expensive experts needed, with a job that's very difficult, mentally tasking, and sometimes physically dangerous. Oftentimes the secondary caregivers like nurses are orderly aren't highly paid, are in a thankless job, are in a high stress job, all of which does not attract the most qualified or sympathetic people.

And with people like this at the lower end of the pay scale and the mental health services, the grind of the job can often cause resentment towards the people you're putting charge of caring for, hence not providing the type of humanitarian care we would all wish.

On top of this you also have the problem that because this job's undesirable and the pay is not that great that you also get undesirable people taking it who abuse and mistreat the people they're charged with caring for.

You've got similar problems in senior care.

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Last edited by MIDNIGHT on Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Foota wrote:
PBFMullethunter wrote:

This is far too sensible. You should adopt Foota's vague "tough love" approach instead. Where's your love for freedom?


I think involuntarily institutionalizing drug addicts and mentals would be considered "tough love".

Are you cool with that?

I don't think handing out free needles and decriminalizing drug use in the public is effective "drug rehab". It is just enablement and the homeless and drug problem has exploded after a decade of these foolish "empathetic" policies.


Tough love? You and HM should really collaborate on your totalitarian utopia.

The handing out free needles, isn't totally illogical, if you look at it from a perspective of public health and controlling HIV, hepatitis and similar bloodborne pathogens. As well as often providing a safe environment for addicts to get there fix rather than them being a public nuisance and infesting abandoned buildings or hanging out in parks in other areas making them unusable by the rest of the citizens that live in that community.

However, I think it's misguided if you don't also have a very vigorous system to try to get them off drugs and get them to help they need. I understand how some people on the left think that any inconvenience to them receiving a clean needle will result in them, Not taking advantage of the program.

But you really need qualified people, who are handing out needles they can get a read on the people, try to engage them in conversation learn what's going on with them and give them a path to getting rehabilitation and back on track. Unfortunately this cost money, and again much easier said than done.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:46 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
[

But from the popular media of consumed I would think that the past healthcare system mental institutions and asylums in the UK were much the same, with people being committed against their will for indefinite stays and that they're all types of horror stories and abuse.



Alot of that was overblown.

My Liberal friends always like to blame Reagan for emptying out the insane asylums causing homelessness. But I remind them that it was a bi-partisan effort, often lead by liberals complaining about involuntary institutionalization. Remember "One Flew over the Cuckoos Nest"?

Sadly, there is always going to a percentage of people who are hopelessly mental or addicted to drugs to be able to take care of themselves.

We can let them suffer on the streets creating more suffering and crime for the majority of non-drug addicts just trying to get to their jobs without being mugged or raped. Or we can start some tough making it logistically difficult to shoot drugs in the wide open where the less hopeless might decide it is preferable to move back home or seek drug counseling - and perhaps jail or institutionalize the worst cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 pm 
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Druggies are going to get hold of needles regardless. Might as well give them clean needles in an environment where they can get help and not get Mongolian AIDS.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:49 pm 
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I'm also pretty certain I'm the only person here who sat on a mental health jury.

That's where someone committed against their will to mental health treatment gets to make a legal case for why they should be released from care.

(Tip, when a guy claims to be Satan and wishes to be released from custody so he can start the apocalypse, it's usually best to find his petition for release invalid, just saying from personal experience :>_ )

Nothing I'm claiming some type of special expertise on the entire subject, I just think it's all a lot more complicated The most people think about.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:50 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Druggies are going to get hold of needles regardless. Might as well give them clean needles in an environment where they can get help and not get Mongolian AIDS.


And what I'm saying, is that concept is not without merit. However I think it's faulty if you don't have a good system in place to give them an alternative route, as well as some hands-on outreach to engage them and accept help and rehabilitation.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:07 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Druggies are going to get hold of needles regardless. Might as well give them clean needles in an environment where they can get help and not get Mongolian AIDS.


If drug addicts are a lost cause of addiction and dysfunction with no hope of sobriety - that seems like a pretty good argument to institutionalize them as opposed to giving them free drugs and needles to live on our streets and cause crime.

These needle exchange programs are a total failure. It has only encouraged more drug addiction.

Again, there are more people in San Francisco on the needle exchange program than H.S. students. Normal people with families fled San Francisco because there is too many crazy and drug-addicted homeless people causing crime and dysfunction.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:10 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Druggies are going to get hold of needles regardless. Might as well give them clean needles in an environment where they can get help and not get Mongolian AIDS.


And what I'm saying, is that concept is not without merit. However I think it's faulty if you don't have a good system in place to give them an alternative route, as well as some hands-on outreach to engage them and accept help and rehabilitation.


I agree with this.

ffs this is not how this works.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:35 pm 
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Foota wrote:
If drug addicts are a lost cause of addiction and dysfunction with no hope of sobriety - that seems like a pretty good argument to institutionalize them as opposed to giving them free drugs and needles to live on our streets and cause crime.


So you're OK with footing the bill for all these new institutions that will need to be built?


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:35 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Druggies are going to get hold of needles regardless. Might as well give them clean needles in an environment where they can get help and not get Mongolian AIDS.


If drug addicts are a lost cause of addiction and dysfunction with no hope of sobriety - that seems like a pretty good argument to institutionalize them as opposed to giving them free drugs and needles to live on our streets and cause crime.

These needle exchange programs are a total failure. It has only encouraged more drug addiction.

Again, there are more people in San Francisco on the needle exchange program than H.S. students. Normal people with families fled San Francisco because there is too many crazy and drug-addicted homeless people causing crime and dysfunction.



So you don't agree with needle exchanges. You support hiv then?

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:38 pm 
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barcelona wrote:
So you don't agree with needle exchanges. You support hiv then?


He probably thinks it's a good "deterrent." Foota should be named Minister of Failed Policies.


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:48 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
barcelona wrote:
So you don't agree with needle exchanges. You support hiv then?


He probably thinks it's a good "deterrent." Foota should be named Minister of Failed Policies.



For such an intelligent guy he's a moron

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:06 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:

So you're OK with footing the bill for all these new institutions that will need to be built?


It will probably be cost neutral since we are already spending BILLIONS and BILLIONS trying to clean up after them.

It is even worse when you think of all the negative economic impacts this endemic of homelessness and crime is causing our major cities. San Francisco has lost dozens of high priced conferences over the past few years because no one wants to walk through bum shit and catch hepatitis getting to the convention center.

San Francisco spends over $30 Million a year just to clean up bum shit and needles. We could better use that money on rehab and halfway houses as opposed to letting them simply live on the street.

Just wait until your precious Skytrain looks like the BART in San Francisco. BART has lost over 10 MILLION riders in the last 5 years because people are tired of getting attacked by crazy homeless people and drug addicts. The guy I just relocated down from Seattle to San Francisco last year has a wife who used to take the BART to get to her job, but stopped last month after seeing so many fights and crazy people shitting on the streets. Now my co-worker has to spend extra time driving his wife to her job and making noise about regretting taking the promotion and moving to California.

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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:15 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
barcelona wrote:
So you don't agree with needle exchanges. You support hiv then?


He probably thinks it's a good "deterrent." Foota should be named Minister of Failed Policies.


Failed policies?

Projection much?

How much bigger to the bum camps need to get before we stop and re-think our empathetic policies that is enabling drug use, crime and homelessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Not me. Us.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:20 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
DEANNA79 wrote:
To be honest Midnight... I personally think an uncircumcised penis is repugnant! Barcy should really get himself snipped, it's so much sexier, IMHO.


Well exactly, and there are a ton of rabbis that will perform that who are also urologist, and can expertly do it. I think their called Mohels.

Leave Barcy’s penis alone Midnight... I am sure he has a nice penis... No Barcy, you can’t send pics either!! >&8~

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