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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Holyman
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Why do we need representatives?

Humanity has a Global Communications Infrastructure that permits Direct Democracy.

We're getting rid of managers in the Workplace, and it's only a matter of time before "Agents" are going to find another source of income.

Why do we still need politicians?

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:07 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Why do we need representatives?

Humanity has a Global Communications Infrastructure that permits Direct Democracy.

We're getting rid of managers in the Workplace, and it's only a matter of time before "Agents" are going to find another source of income.

Why do we still need politicians?

:-??


Cos people need someone to blame and give them hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:09 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
PBFMullethunter wrote:
Why is the curly haired guy grabbing his dick?


That's how you voted back then


Actually the assembly voted by show of hands, which is pretty hilarious if you think about how cunts could be peer pressured into voting for something they may not otherwise have voted for (the execution of the 10 generals for instance). Votes in the Courts were secret though, which says a lot about how sacred that institution was to the Athenians. The assembly was the rough and ready rowdy place to decide on action; the Courts were much more sober and thoughtful.

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Major General
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Hoff wrote:
Slacks wrote:
PBFMullethunter wrote:
Why is the curly haired guy grabbing his dick?


That's how you voted back then


Actually the assembly voted by show of hands, which is pretty hilarious if you think about how cunts could be peer pressured into voting for something they may not otherwise have voted for (the execution of the 10 generals for instance).


Still makes more sense than having politicians shuffle through one of two doors to make a vote.

Seriously, just give them a button to press ffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:25 pm 
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atm in the pel war the Athenians have gone megalomaniac; they're so convinced of their superiority that not only are they fighting every cunt at the same time whilst giving the finger to Persia and crushing greece under the sandal (the few times where they deign to justify their behaviour they typically just say u mad bro? might is right, or maybe go on about how they singlehandedly saved Greece from the Persians so deserve to rule or they get all defensive about their super special empire whilst claiming everyone else wants to steal it), they've now decided to fucking conquer italy. Opening up a gigantic second front as challenging as the main war just because; this shit is crazier than Hitler. The Spartans claim that Athens wants to conquer not only Greece but the entire planet. And they aren't really wrong.

Democracy is fucking fun times; to the average nigga anything is possible and he'll vote for it if persuaded. I am truly convinced this is the only way we're gonna properly go to space

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Did I mention that the Athenians viewed taxation as slavery? Working for a wage was viewed as slavery as well. The taxation system was essentially a 2% customs duty on imports/exports, revenue from selling 4 year leases to mine silver etc deposits within attica, court fines, taxes on foreigners and licence fees on whores; also a flat 1% property tax on the richest 1200 cunts when required. So most citizens paid no tax. The state didnt collect taxes either; they auctioned off the contracts to collect to citizens; if you and ur m8s won the contract for that customs duty for example then you collected it, and any surplus above what the state required was yours.

Interestingly, despite having absolute power, the masses never voted to redistribute the property of the rich. They loved voting for wars because loot (the rich hated wars because they had to pay for them), but like Australia there was never any real envy of the rich or coveting of their property. This really btfo's the views of modern day commies who think that the people will eat the rich, and the views of conservative/libertardian faggots who think everyone is an individual selfish unit and thus are terrified that the mob will steal all their shit. Actually it turns out that the mob has a better moral compass than anyone, takes an extremely hard line against theft of all types and is mostly focused on minding its own business. Funny that.

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:58 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Why do we need representatives?

Humanity has a Global Communications Infrastructure that permits Direct Democracy.

We're getting rid of managers in the Workplace, and it's only a matter of time before "Agents" are going to find another source of income.

Why do we still need politicians?

:-??


well thats the point; direct democracy has no politicians. But this also leads to a problem that I'm unsure about: Athenian democracy, being able to hold assemblies for all the citizens where anyone could address the assembly, had a huge leadership role for orators. It naturally allowed the cream of the crop to rise to the top; incredible men like Pericles and Themistocles, who were able to address the assembly at will and were so esteemed they could basically steer the entire ship of the state, because the assembly would agree with anything they proposed. In this version I'm adapting for a large nation state, you'd just have to hope that there's a pericles sitting in one of those 4000 seats at the right time. So I dunno

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Maybe there could be a process where any citizen can address the parliament, even if they're not on it at the time.

I can't emphasise enough how important this is btw. Demokratia alternated between fuhrerprinzip and arguing rabble constantly, and that was key to its strength.

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:30 pm 
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I say keep governance straightforward and give the government a simple mandate of ensuring that all the population have an adequate standard of living, Simple measurements:

- All have the basic essentials for life (shelter, food, warmth etc).
- Safety (physical, material protection from crime, fires, disasters etc.)
- Healthy (universal healthcare, environment)

Leave everything else to the free market which would have to operate within the constraints set above.

Also absolutely no involvement in social institutions. It should give zero shits about religion, or marriage, or who identifies as the opposite sex or a burger.

The economy has to be a lot more transparent too. All tax replaced by a tax on ALL transactions taken at source (the bank). Vastly reduces paperwork, administration, tax dodging (cash still a pain but manageable). Replace property tax with a land tax. Also, universal income.

No TV licence.

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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:34 pm 
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Holyman
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The Reality is that we're in the 21st Century now.

And instead of looking back at all of History's failed attempts to create a stable and purposeful Society, we could look forward to the kind of Society we could all be happy in, and work backwards from there, to figure out how we get there.

Fairly sure that politicians won't be in that picture.

Policy doesn't work anymore: there are too many variables.

:-??

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"We are moving into an era where authority cannot be the Truth.

Only the Truth shall be the Authority in coming times, as the sanctity of all authorities will be questioned."
- Sadhguru


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:42 pm 
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Holyman
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@Slacks:

Howabout decentralising Government?

Not geographically, but departmentally?

A "Health Government", an "Education Government", an "Environment Government" &c.

All with separate elections and candidates.

("But how could they work together HM?!?")

Well, for starters, more effectively because there would be no ranking of Ministerial posts, and entirely separate budgets and revenue-raising power.

And they'd co-operate in the same way as nations in alliances like the EU. Why wouldn't they?

There are too many humans on the Planet now for a single individual or Central Government to effectively manage.

Decentralise.

Do to Politics what the Internet has done to the Media.

:-bd

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"We are moving into an era where authority cannot be the Truth.

Only the Truth shall be the Authority in coming times, as the sanctity of all authorities will be questioned."
- Sadhguru


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:20 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
I say keep governance straightforward and give the government a simple mandate of ensuring that all the population have an adequate standard of living, Simple measurements:

- All have the basic essentials for life (shelter, food, warmth etc).
- Safety (physical, material protection from crime, fires, disasters etc.)
- Healthy (universal healthcare, environment)

Leave everything else to the free market which would have to operate within the constraints set above.

Also absolutely no involvement in social institutions. It should give zero shits about religion, or marriage, or who identifies as the opposite sex or a burger.

The economy has to be a lot more transparent too. All tax replaced by a tax on ALL transactions taken at source (the bank). Vastly reduces paperwork, administration, tax dodging (cash still a pain but manageable). Replace property tax with a land tax. Also, universal income.

No TV licence.


The citizens dividend provides all this, and it also means all welfare departments are abolished. But it's only for citizens. It's just a weekly payment to every citizen equally, depending on the economy. Most likely it'd be 20 or so grand a year, AUD. I'd privatise the part of our health system that is public and just add private care to medicare (our public health insurance). Ultimately there is no reason why the government should be running any kind of enterprise including health. But that's for the parliament to decide, not me

Taxation under this system is just a flat consumption tax like our GST in aus, but is adjusted by the central bank up and down as required. With the abolition of the vast majority of government departments under demokratia, government spending would drop to OG european levels, aka 5-10% of gdp max. There would be scarce need for taxes, and the parliament wouldnt fucking vote for them anyway

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:25 pm 
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Needless to say under this system non-citizens (aka anyone descended from an immigrant who came in the past 100 years) are gonna be cut off from the teat completely. They wont have access to the health system unless they can pay; they'll have no welfare even in emergencies, and they'll have no access to any kind of court (besides a maigstrates) or public protest. If they don't like it without all the goodies they're free to go home

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:47 pm 
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btw again, im just going through foundations atm. Haven't gotten to other units like the states etc. But naturally shit would be decentralised to the core Holyman, as aus was always intended to be through the federal-state-local structure. This would be a natural result of having a parliament chosen by lot with absolute power anyway, I think. Even Athens, small as it was by todays standards, was decentralised though demes and hundreds of little villages throughout the countryside. Everyone should be running their own shit; im truly convinced there is no other way forward

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:56 pm 
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The various states, localities, counties etc can of course run their shit how they like; the beauty of demokratia though is that once people see how it rolls at the top level for the country, they'll demand virtually at gunpoint that their local areas set it up that way too. The example is set, witnessed and everything follows naturally from there.

This should suit the American mindset to a tee, I think. if they don't self destruct from from the additional power level, like Goku nearly did when he pushed his body past kaioken x10

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:39 am 
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Anyway stop distracting me idiots. The Courts™ are up next. If the rifle is the sword of the democracy and liberty then the courts are its shield. ill get to it when im home

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Alaskan Viking wrote:
Trump is going to lose to Hillary in a landslide, he is literally the only candidate who could have lost to her, we will have 4-8 more years of lefty insanity, possible lose the congress, and have a liberal dominated supreme court for a generation.

And I fucking blame you fuckwits who voted for Trump in the primary, classic low information voter.

We need pull taxes, to cull the opinions of DINDU's and inbred Trump supporters. >>::$


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:31 am 
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Are there gonna be free hot dogs?


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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:30 am 
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Hoff wrote:
Anyway stop distracting me idiots.


Well, I still want to know how the masses are going to be made to feel in some sort of control over the process. For all the sensible arguments you make, if people don't feel vaguely in control of their own destiny a system won't last long.

Even if we did without politicians I can't see people sitting around waiting for the next randomly selected bunch to hopefully improve things if things got shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Demokratia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:53 pm 
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The people AND the policies should be random. Just make a big globe full of different actions, and the one that comes out on Action Day is the one Demokratia must take.


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