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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:42 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
The Iranians say it is scientifically impossible for them to shut down that Ukrainian airline.


And there's a growing mountain of evidence to the contrary including no less than two videos obtained by international news media. One of which shows the impact of the missile.



I must conclude you're anti-science, since the scientific consensus is, that its scientifically impossible for the Iranians to have been involved.

:>_


It's scientifically impossible for the Iranians to have not done it. It wasn't some magical CIA plot, why would they go after Ukrainians of all people? It wasn't Russians being drunk or invasive for once. It wasn't the Chinese being totalitarian, they're too busy being totalitarian in Hong Kong. It wasn't the French or the Saudis or the Israelis or the Turks or the Egyptians or Italians or Brazilians or Aussies or whatever. The only remaining possibility is Iran doing it themselves, this is scientific process of elimination.

I must therefore conclude that YOU Mr. Anti-Science are therefore Anti-Science. [-X

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:44 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:

And there's a growing mountain of evidence to the contrary including no less than two videos obtained by international news media. One of which shows the impact of the missile.



I must conclude you're anti-science, since the scientific consensus is, that its scientifically impossible for the Iranians to have been involved.

:>_


It's scientifically impossible for the Iranians to have not done it. It wasn't some magical CIA plot, why would they go after Ukrainians of all people? It wasn't Russians being drunk or invasive for once. It wasn't the Chinese being totalitarian, they're too busy being totalitarian in Hong Kong. It wasn't the French or the Saudis or the Israelis or the Turks or the Egyptians or Italians or Brazilians or Aussies or whatever. The only remaining possibility is Iran doing it themselves, this is scientific process of elimination.

I must therefore conclude that YOU Mr. Anti-Science are therefore Anti-Science. [-X


Glad there’s at least SOMEONE here who can apply rigorous and time-tested methodologies in their thought processes to arrive at the indisputable truth.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
I don't think you're being very objective here Midnight.

And your standards for proof seem to differ for each of the parties involved.

Why is that?

:-??



Stop projecting.

The gracious thing to do is just be except that I'm probably correct in this particular situation.

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:52 pm 
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That has to happen sooner or later...

But in the meantime: what do you mean by "projecting"?

As far as I am concerned, both the Iranian and U.S. "governments" are reprehensibly self-serving and corruptedby power.

I don't take anything either side claims uncritically.

But you seem to be saying that the U.S. Government is more trustworthy than the Iranian Government.

I can understand why you don't trust the Iranian Government, because neither do I.

But I can't understand why you trust the U.S. Government; particularly as it tries to recover from Trump's latest fuck-up.

Why not just distrust both equally?

:-??

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:58 pm 
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One thing does occur:

In the run-up to the plane crash, the U.S. *MUST* have been monitoring Iranian airspace and associated activities, on account of the fact that Iran was bombing US facilities in Iraq.

So why did it take 48 hours for the US to start pushing the line that the Iranians had downed the plane?

Surely the US would have known immediately, and informed Agent Orange whar had happened.

Why the delay in spinning the story up? And why is the US relying on amateur, ambiguous video?

:-?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm 
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"Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings."


What makes you think I trust the US government? Yes I trust them more than I trust the Iranians, But none of what I said has anything to do with trusting the US government.



Soleimani was involved in promoting terrorism, he was very much invested in destabilizing Iraq, as well as the region in general. Since he placed himself in a war zone, with the intent of making more war & promoting terrorist acts, he was legitimate target and it was in no way an assassination. That's simply my reasonable opinion objectively looking at the situation It has nothing to do with trusting the US government.

Your accusation is so ridiculous I'm not going to even explore it anymore.

Plus the statements I made regarding the possibility that the Iranians shot down the Ukrainian airliner was, if you recall, from what Justin Trudeau said and last time I checked he's not part of the US government.

My statements are not based on trusting the US government, it's once again based on the most logical possibility given the facts that we've been presented. That the Iranians accidentally fired on that aircraft because they were on hair trigger mode expecting some type of US counter strike and made a huge mistake. This conclusion is not based on anything the US government has said in regards to this issue.

However given the area and the limited facts we've been presented there could be additional revelations that might change all this.


Last edited by MIDNIGHT on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:11 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
One thing does occur:

In the run-up to the plane crash, the U.S. *MUST* have been monitoring Iranian airspace and associated activities, on account of the fact that Iran was bombing US facilities in Iraq.

So why did it take 48 hours for the US to start pushing the line that the Iranians had downed the plane?

Surely the US would have known immediately, and informed Agent Orange whar had happened.

Why the delay in spinning the story up? And why is the US relying on amateur, ambiguous video?

:-?


Maybe they wanted to further humiliate the Mullahs by letting them go out on TV within minutes of the crash and ludicrously claiming that the plane went down due to mechanical issues before a single investigator set foot at the crash site?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:57 pm 
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Or maybe they wanted to make sure they were drawing the right conclusions before making complete tits of themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:58 pm 
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There was no 'incident'... that plane and passengers never existed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:54 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
What makes you think I trust the US government?


Because you write things like this:

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Yes I trust them more than I trust the Iranians


Try and understand that I distrust the Iranian and U.S. Governments equally.

But your distrust of both Governments is *NOT* equal.

And I find that quite baffling.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
But none of what I said has anything to do with trusting the US government.


Well let's see:

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Soleimani was involved in promoting terrorism, he was very much invested in destabilizing Iraq, as well as the region in general.


Who told you that?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Since he placed himself in a war zone, with the intent of making more war & promoting terrorist acts, he was legitimate target and it was in no way an assassination.


He was travelling on a Diplomatic Passport, to visit Baghdad at the invitation of the Iraqi Government, and was assassinated along with a high-ranking member of the Iraqi Military.

I know this, because every single report I've read from multiple sources confirms this.

You are relying solely on the U.S. Government's (rushed) own justification that it hasn't just broken domestic and international Law.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
That's simply my reasonable opinion objectively looking at the situation It has nothing to do with trusting the US government.


What other sources have you researched in order to balance your opinion?

Or are you relying solely on the U.S. Government's line as the basis of your opinion?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Your accusation is so ridiculous I'm not going to even explore it anymore.


Accusation?

I am simply observing that you are exclusively parroting the USG-line, and do not appear to be open to any alternative opinions.

I am certainly open to the possibility that it is all as the USG is saying. Could very well have been an over-zealous and/or incompetent Iranian who fired an AA missile at a passenger jet. (Although I'm not sure how that could ever be proven... Even if/when the investigation reveals the plane was definitely brought down by a missile.)

But you don't seem to be open to any other possibilities, beyond what your Commander-in-Chief is telling you.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Plus the statements I made regarding the possibility that the Iranians shot down the Ukrainian airliner was, if you recall, from what Justin Trudeau said and last time I checked he's not part of the US government.


Ah.

Slight misunderstanding about the nature of U.S.-Canadian political relations, but not to worry.

Are Canadian Intelligence services more effective in Iran than those of the U.S?

Boris Johnson has also come out in full-throated support of the U.S. position.

Which is all the British Public needed to confirm that it must be a whole load of opportunistic bullshit.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
My statements are not based on trusting the US government, it's once again based on the most logical possibility given the facts that we've been presented.


The only fact that we have been presented with, is that a civilian airliner crashed with the loss of all souls, shortly after taking off from Tehran airport.

We have to take on faith that those grainy videos show the actual plane in question being brought down by a missile, in Iran.

You say that the "most logical possibility" is that the Iranian Government authorised the shooting down of an airplane with 80+ Iranians on-board.

I say that the most logical possibility is that the plane suffered the kind of crash that is fairly routine with Boeing aircraft in Central Asia.

But so what?

Presumably we'll find out in due course.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
That the Iranians accidentally fired on that aircraft because they were on hair trigger mode expecting some type of US counter strike and made a huge mistake. This conclusion is not based on anything the US government has said in regards to this issue.


There's nothing logical about that hypothesis.

It was a civilian plane leaving Iran's busiest airport. And it crashed/was destroyed shortly after take-off.

Why shoot that plane and not others?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
However given the area and the limited facts we've been presented there could be additional revelations that might change all this.


There you go.

Always worth keeping an Open Mind with these matters.

:-bd

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:18 pm 
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Go ahead HM, I'm sure your Machiavellian conspiracy theory about how the genius/incompetent US government is pulling all the strings and the poor hapless Iranians, along with everyone else, are dancing on the strings, must be true.

It certainly makes far more sense and I'm sure is much more compelling and well reasoned than the Iranians simply making a mistake.

III/O

Also any diplomatic immunity Soleimani had claim to was issued by his own minions In the Iraqi government. Not the US government. He was actively involved in acts of war against the US, it's a little consequence if a bunch of corrupt Iraqi officials under his control tried to give him immunity.

I find your attempts to individually challenge my previous statements by picking out each sentence and posting some goggly goop under it uncompelling.

I'm correct in this particular situation and unfortunately you decided to steadfastly adhere to an uncorrect position.

:>_

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:24 pm 
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>*^*<

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
>*^*<


No need for the popcorn this was already won a couple posts ago.

:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 pm 
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Have just been catching Holywoman up on developments (after one of the cats turned on the TV news in the kitchen, causing HW to ask me what the cat was watching).

Not sure if I've mentioned this before, but due to various congenital dispositions and her Lifestyle choices, HW only has about 48Kb of RAM and her CPU runs at a frequency of several Terahertz.

Which means I have to keep things both brief and interesting:

Trump killed this important Iranian guy.

The Iranians fired a handful of missiles at some disused U.S. military facilities in Iraq. Nobody was killed.

Two hours or so after the Iranians fired the missiles, a Ukrainian civilian airliner crashed shortly after taking off from Tehran airport.

A few more hours after that, Trump gave a news conference, where he basically said, "Fair enough. We'll call it quits, shall we?"

For the next 24 hours or so, the (Western) News Cycle was dominated by assessment and opinion of Trump's and the Iranian's actions, and speculation about whether or not this meant that World War III was actually on or not.

The story about the Ukrainian plane was a side-bar, with most reporting supporting one of the (later revealed) video's indication of an aircraft with an engine fire trying to return to the airport from which it had just taken off.

And then yesterday, around about lunchtime Washington, D.C. time, the suggestion that the Iranian Government had either shot the plane down, or caused or allowed it to be shot down.

And that's been followed up with the videos the cat is now watching.

One of which does look like a plane with an engine fire, turning badly before crashing. But all of which we must take on trust are definitely videos of the declared event.

The result of which is that the Western (especially Anglophone) Media News Cycle is now completely dominated by discussion in, of and around this plane crash and alleged Iranian culpability.

(HW chimed in at that point with some incredulity... Because she hadn't been paying close attention to all of the above, and was under the impression that it was the U.S. that was being alleged to have shot down the plane... In retaliation for the missile strikes... Or some other form of disincentive.)

Two days ago: "Has Trump started WW III???!?!?!"

Now: "Oooh... Those Iranians...! What are they like?!?"

...

I extemporised:

The Rest of the World isn't talking about a civilian airplane crashing/being shot down in Tehran.

They are talking about Donald Trump starting World War Three.

It was much the same in the 1930's.

Outside of Germany, the Rest of the World was talking with great concern about Hitler turning his personal "Kampf" into a World War.

Within Germany, they were mostly talking about how dangerous the Jews were.

The United States is trying to convince its own citizens that tin-pot nations like North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba &c., all individually represent existential threats to the Nation that has the greatest military arsenal the World has ever seen.

Meanwhile, the Rest of the World thinks that the United States is governed by the same Anglo-Saxon "Mafia" that has *ALWAYS* predominated in America. A "Mafia" that is the most violent and destructive force on Earth, with a proven record of destroying nations that don't or won't pay for "Protection".

And you have to ask:

If a nation with the United States' military might *STILL* feels threatened by Mad Mullahs, Banana Republics and Hermit Kingdoms...

Then it probably needs Therapy far more than it needs more weapons.

...

HW broadly agreed.

The cat is keeping an Open Mind.

>&8~

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:06 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
No need for the popcorn this was already won a couple posts ago.


What was the prize for winning?

:-?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
No need for the popcorn this was already won a couple posts ago.


What was the prize for winning?

:-?


Less than even a gentleman's bet, I'll let you win the next one ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:40 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Go ahead HM, I'm sure your Machiavellian conspiracy theory about how the genius/incompetent US government is pulling all the strings and the poor hapless Iranians, along with everyone else, are dancing on the strings, must be true.


It's so Machiavellian, even *I* don't know what it is..!!

(That takes an unbelievable degree of Intelligence...)

Seriously though...

This has nothing to do with "conspiracy theory", and everything to do with Media Management.

It's not American Spooks or the Military running this, but the White House.

Read the summary I gave Holywoman. It's just about managing the News Cycle and Public Perception.

Oh, I suppose the bit about coercing strong, independent National leaders like Trudeau and Johnson into providing political/diplomatic/PR cover might be seen as a bit conspiratorial...

But does *ANYONE* here think that Trudeau or Johnson could or would speak in opposition to Trump? It's only World War Three we're talking about here. Going to take a lot more than that to get Trudeau and Johnson to break ranks with the U.S.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
It certainly makes far more sense and I'm sure is much more compelling and well reasoned than the Iranians simply making a mistake.


I'm not really discussing culpability, because I don't see there is any sense in speculating about things no Real People are going to know the Truth about for ages, if ever (the way things are going...).

I'm actually decrying the indecent and opportunistic seizing on what - even you acknowledge - *COULD* just be an unfortunately-timed tragedy, to detract from what the President of the United States has just done.

I'm also marvelling at the brazen lack of objectivity, which I can only infer is founded on a great deal of ignorance about the nature of Iranian Society. There is an automatic assumption that the "Bad Guys" must have done something bad... Obviously... Clue's in the name!

Understand that I'm not accusing the U.S. of anything other than manipulating the event to try and take Trump's naked ineptitude out of domestic News headlines, in this, his Impeachment *AND* Election Year.

(It occurs to me that people living in countries that are in the United States' cross-hairs must hate it when a President gets impeached... Since it likely heralds an unpleasant time for them...)

I'm certainly not going anywhere near the idea that there are clandestine U.S. forces or agents in Iran who might have brought the plane down for any number of reasons.

If it was - as you seem to be allowing - a mistake on the part of the Iranians... Then it was a tragic accident that caused the deaths of many Iranians, and oh, many Canadians too.

And that means many Canadian families are now having to get to grips with the loss of Loved Ones.

How appropriate is it, that whilst there is still plenty of room for speculation that this was unintentional, for the Trump Administration (much less fucking Trudeau), to be using it to provide political and diplomatic cover to that fat orange cunt in the White House?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Also any diplomatic immunity Soleimani had claim to was issued by his own minions In the Iraqi government. Not the US government.


Hmmm...

A spectacular misunderstanding of how Diplomacy and Diplomatic Immunity works.

Much as both you and Trump may wish it so, the U.S. Government doesn't get to decide which individuals a foreign Nation is allowed to grant diplomatic credentials to.

That's kind of the whole point of Diplomatic Immunity, if you think about it.

Sooner or later, War exhausts, and the Diplomats have to take over. And that means meeting with your enemies (you only make Peace with enemies). If every diplomat and diplomatic mission was fair game, whenever any Government decided not to recognise their diplomatic status... Well... There wouldn't be much room for Diplomacy in the World, would there?

No, I'm afraid the clearest and most obvious item that should be at the top of the News Agenda, is that by so flagrantly breaching the diplomatic protocols that the United States Republic has been signatory to, more or less since its inception, President Trump has committed a Felony in his own Nation.

Because according to the U.S. Constitution, any International Treaty that the U.S. is signatory to, automatically becomes part of domestic law.

And him already impeached too..!

>*^*<

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:38 am 
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Holyman wrote:

He was travelling on a Diplomatic Passport, to visit Baghdad at the invitation of the Iraqi Government, and was assassinated along with a high-ranking member of the Iraqi Military.

I know this, because every single report I've read from multiple sources confirms this.

:-bd


Soleimani was subject to a United Nations travel ban due to his long history of fomenting sectarian war and terrorist activities.

What was he doing in Iraq?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:43 am 
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Holyman - do you think Iran has the right to interfere in Iraq's politics by supporting the most extremist Shia groups who won't reconcile with Sunnis and Kurdish Arabs?

Do you think Iran is widely popular with Iraq's Shias?

If so, who burnt down the Iranian consulate in Najaf of all places?

Quote:
Iraq Protesters Burn Down Iran Consulate in Night of Anger
Antigovernment demonstrators, who have demanded an end to Iranian influence in Iraq, attacked the consulate in the city of Najaf.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/worl ... -burn.html


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:08 am 
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Just let them fight amongst themselves. Who cares.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:46 am 
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Personally I think you need to be borderline retarded to believe the plane wasn't shot down by an Iranian missile given what was happening at the time. ...but you have to be equally retarded to believe that it was intentional.

"You fuckers killed our beloved general!"
"For that we will kill a plane full of mostly our people! TAKE THAT!"


It was a fucking accident.

First thing I did when it happened was go to an aviation forum filled with pilots (best place to go when this shit happens). Virtually impossible for that airplane to go down from an engine fire according to the aviation nerds. The engines on that thing are designed to burn and fall off and 1 is enough to easily turn it around and get it back to the airport. Given that Iran would have been on high alert expecting a possible strike from the US ...given that it is almost impossible for that plane to go down from an engine fire...yep...I'm going with a tragic accident as a result of heightened tensions.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:04 am 
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But it does beg the question:

Why is the Iranian military so fucking inept? They’re as bad as the Iraqis.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:46 am 
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I don't think anyone thinks it was intentional.

Just like the Malaysian shoot down in Ukraine a few years ago, crap Russian air defense systems apparently can't tell the difference between a cruise missile and a commercial airliner. I think Turkey just bought a bunch of this Russian crap too.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:05 am 
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Iran has admitted it was a mistake

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:24 am 
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barcelona wrote:
Iran has admitted it was a mistake


nope I’m sticking with HM’s conspiracy theory


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