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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:32 pm 
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It was legitimate, but incredibly poorly carried out.

In retrospect we I should have just spent more effort on fracking oil.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:38 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
In retrospect we should have just spent more effort on looking after our own citizens.


fixed


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:04 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
It was legitimate


Define "legitimate".

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:43 pm 
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Yeah, what the fuck are you on about?

Not regime change, WMDs, Mission Accomplished at point of regime change, sack of snakes escape all over, #finish daddy's work, value add?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:45 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
It was legitimate


Define "legitimate".


Saddam-era Iraq was in numerous violations of UNSC resolutions dating back to the Gulf War. Furthermore, the United States Congress authorized military force to deal with it.

That the UN itself is unwilling to enforce its own stuff doesn't make something we do on their behalf illegitimate. If anything, it makes the UN and the notion of international law illegitimate.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:51 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Slacks wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
It was legitimate


Define "legitimate".


Saddam-era Iraq was in numerous violations of UNSC resolutions dating back to the Gulf War. Furthermore, the United States Congress authorized military force to deal with it.

That the UN itself is unwilling to enforce its own stuff doesn't make something we do on their behalf illegitimate. If anything, it makes the UN and the notion of international law illegitimate.


International Law gets flouted all the time.

And you know very well that wasn't the reason the US and lapdogs invaded.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Nobody ever said life in the ME with Saddam in place was a bed of roses.

But what everyone with any understanding of the ME said was: if you're gonna get rid of Saddam, you better have a plan in place to deal with what follows.

Even if the U.S. ever did have a plan, its leadership would not have been competent enough to deliver it.

Everything that followed in the wake of that War Crime, is by the Nuremberg Standard, a consequence of that highest of crimes.

If Human Society was actually based on the laws it wastes so much time bickering about, Cheney, Bush & Blair would have been executed by now.

The U.S. cannot possibly uphold International Law, much less enforce it, because it refuses to be bound by it.

That's all there is to it.

8).))

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:54 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

But what everyone with any understanding of the ME said was: if you're gonna get rid of Saddam, you better have a plan in place to deal with what follows.

Even if the U.S. ever did have a plan, its leadership would not have been competent enough to deliver it.

8).))


There was a plan. De-Bathification and empowerment of the rightful majority Shia and Kurds to finally participate in their governance. Tens of millions of Shia and Kurds are better off today now that they no longer live under brutal Sunni Baathist domination.

We failed to anticipate fuck-sticks like Solomeini would take advantage of Iraq's liberation to stir up 15+ years of sectarian war killing thousands of Iraqis and pushing the Sunnis into the arms of Al Qaeda and ISIS for protection.

In retrospect, we should have killed Solomeini 10+ years ago and warn Ayatollahs that we are going to take out their major infrastructure if they didn't stop killing Iraqis fomenting civil war.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:24 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:

But what everyone with any understanding of the ME said was: if you're gonna get rid of Saddam, you better have a plan in place to deal with what follows.

Even if the U.S. ever did have a plan, its leadership would not have been competent enough to deliver it.

8).))


There was a plan. De-Bathification and empowerment of the rightful majority Shia and Kurds to finally participate in their governance.


That's an objective, not a plan.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:39 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:

But what everyone with any understanding of the ME said was: if you're gonna get rid of Saddam, you better have a plan in place to deal with what follows.

Even if the U.S. ever did have a plan, its leadership would not have been competent enough to deliver it.

8).))


There was a plan. De-Jewification and empowerment of the rightful majority Getmans to finally participate in their governance.


That's an objective, not a plan.



What's the fucking difference

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:01 pm 
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barcelona wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Foota wrote:

There was a plan. De-Jewification and empowerment of the rightful majority Getmans to finally participate in their governance.


That's an objective, not a plan.



What's the fucking difference


?!

An objective is something you want to achieve e.g. get fitter. A plan is how you get there e.g. go running for an hour a day and do 200 press ups.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:22 pm 
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Slacks wrote:

That's an objective, not a plan.





They planned to topple Saddam and met that objective in a couple weeks.

The US and a multi-national coalition sent nearly 200,000 troops to assist with the aftermath and rebuilding to help with the transition. The coalition spent billions of dollars building up infrastructure and to train a new military and government.

They did not "plan" that Solomeini and Iran (along with Sunni extremists and former Baathists) would be so fucking brutal and evil to pit neighbor against neighbor, start blowing up Islam's most holy mosques and start a sectarian war that would spill over into Syria.

So yeah - we should have better anticipated and planned that the Muslims in the Middle East were going to go absolutely bonkers and start killing each other by the tens of thousands.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:51 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
barcelona wrote:
Slacks wrote:

That's an objective, not a plan.



What's the fucking difference


?!

An objective is something you want to achieve e.g. get fitter. A plan is how you get there e.g. go running for an hour a day and do 200 press ups.



It was to Foota.. See I edited his quote you dummy ?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:52 pm 
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barcelona wrote:
Slacks wrote:
barcelona wrote:


What's the fucking difference


?!

An objective is something you want to achieve e.g. get fitter. A plan is how you get there e.g. go running for an hour a day and do 200 press ups.



It was to Foota.. See I edited his quote you dummy ?


U=B}

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:13 am 
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Iranian militias launch rocket strike on US embassy in Baghdad, at least one wounded.

But if we listen to people (read: naive morons) like Holyman, they are only there to bring peace instead of terrorize people into kowtowing to them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm 
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The extremist Iranian backed militias want the US out of the way so they can go back to drilling holes into the heads of their Sunni enemies.

Quote:
The most harrowing scene in American Sniper involves an Iraqi character nicknamed “The Butcher” torturing and executing an Iraqi child by taking a power drill to his skull. The scene lends credibility to the narrative of Chris Kyle as basically a hero facing villains. In the film, “The Butcher” is a lieutenant of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Sunni insurgent, terrorist, and founder of Al Qaeda in Iraq, which later became ISIS.

However, in the Iraq of the real world, power drilling human heads is more of a predilection, not of Sunni insurgents, but of their enemies in the Shiite militias.

For one, there is the warlord Abu Deraa, nicknamed “the Shiite Zarqawi,” who according to the UK’s Sunday Times (emphasis added):

“…is thought to be responsible for the murder of thousands of civilians, mostly Sunnis, and is said to take personal delight in killing — sometimes with a bullet to the head, sometimes by driving a drill into the skulls of his victims. On other occasions, Iraqis say, he gives them a choice of being shot or battered to death with concrete building blocks.”

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2015/01/26 ... s-of-iraq/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:37 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Iranian militias launch rocket strike on US embassy in Baghdad, at least one wounded.

But if we listen to people (read: naive morons) like Holyman, they are only there to bring peace instead of terrorize people into kowtowing to them.


Which people are the Iraqi Shia militias trying to terrorise by firing rockets at the U.S. Embassy compound in Baghdad (wounding at least one...)?

And which people is the U.S. Government trying to terrorise with its drone-strikes, aerial bombardments, targeted assassinations, and crippling sanctions?

:-?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

Which people are the Iraqi Shia militias trying to terrorise by firing rockets at the U.S. Embassy compound in Baghdad (wounding at least one...)?

:-?


Their fellow Iraqis?

Iranian backed militias want the US out of the way so they can go around and ethnically cleanse more Sunnis with power drills.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:33 pm 
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You'd think it would be easier to randomly grab individual Sunni Iraqis off the street, than attack the U.S. Embassy.

And given what the U.S. did to Sunni Iraqis from 2003 onwards, I'm not sure the latter will feel particularly terrorised by Shia Iraqi Militias attacking the U.S. Embassy.

I would have thought the occupants of the Embassy would find it more terrifying, wouldn't you?

:-?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:41 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

And given what the U.S. did to Sunni Iraqis from 2003 onwards, I'm not sure the latter will feel particularly terrorised by Shia Iraqi Militias attacking the U.S. Embassy.

:-?


The Sunnis were dancing in the streets once Solomeini was taken out. Sunnis also ran to the arms of Americans when they were on the business end of ISIS and Iranian militias. Tens of thousands of Sunnis were killed and tortured by Iranian backed Shiites.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/ ... neral.html

Thousands of Iraqis (mostly Shias) have been protesting and burning down Iranian buildings over the last few months apparently tired of Iran's meddling.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/ ... 36467.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:57 pm 
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I suppose at least you're distinguishing between Shia and Sunni.

It's a start...

>&8~

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:28 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
I suppose at least you're distinguishing between Shia and Sunni.

It's a start...

>&8~


I have since the beginning.

One of the reasons why I supported regime change 16+ years ago in Iraq is that I knew it was impossible for the minority Sunnis to keep their boots on the necks of the majority Shia and Kurd population forever.

Same reason why I am against Iran and Russia propping up Assad's minority government to oppress the majority Sunni population in Syria.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:35 pm 
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You know we're talking about Real People here..?

It's not a Sports League.

>&8~

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:01 pm 
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JANUARY 29, 2020

The World Demands Us Out of the Middle East

by KEVIN ZEESE - MARGARET FLOWERS


The world is saying no to war with Iran and US out of the Middle East. Hundreds of protests were held in the United States and around the world on Saturday with a unified voice of “No War.” These protests are in solidarity with massive protests in Iraq calling for the US to get out where it is now an occupying force as the government has asked it to leave.

These protests and the uprising over the US remaining in Iraq are not being covered in the US corporate media. Millions of people participated in the memorials for General Soleimani and Abu Mahdi al-Muhandes after the US assassinated them. Now, millions have protested the refusal of the US to leave Iraq. The Pentagon knows the reality is that US troops in Iraq are at increasing risk every day the US stays in that sovereign nation.

The warnings have been sent. i24 News reports that up to five missiles struck near the US Embassy in Baghdad today. “Sunday’s attack was the second night in a row that the Green Zone was hit and the 15th time over the last two months that US installations have been targeted.”

The Pentagon will need to tell President Trump that he has two choices to protect US troops. The first choice is to abide by the law and the demands of the Iraqi government by leaving Iraq. The second choice is to escalate and bring in tens of thousands of more troops as well as anti-missile systems. Iran showed the US that even when they warned them they would be attacking a base with several hours’ notice so personnel could leave, the US military was unable to stop the Iranian missiles. Iran has also shown that it can shoot down US drones over the Strait of Hormuz.

The US needs to leave Iraq and the Middle East and stop threatening Iran or it risks spending hundreds of billions of dollars and risking the lives of US troops. All this for oil that President Trump says the US does not need. In this era when the fossil fuel economy must come to an end, it is time for the US to get out of the Middle East.

Massive Protests in Iraq Demand the US Leave

Telesur reports, “According to estimates of the Iraqi police commander Jaafar Al-Batat, over 1 million people Thursday demanded the departure of U.S. troops from Iraq with a march in Baghdad, which was convened by cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr three weeks after the murder of Iran’s General Qasem Soleimani.”

The message of the protest was very clear from the signs and actions of the protesters. Banners included “No, No to the U.S. and Yes to Iraqi sovereignty,” “The willingness of free nations is stronger than the U.S. aggression,” and “Global terrorism is made in the U.S.” Another sign sent a very clear message “To the Families of American soldiers Insist on the Withdrawal of Your Sons from Our Country, or Prepare their Coffins.” [Emphasis in Original] Protesters carried burned images of Donald Trump, others raised photos of the US president’s face crossed out with a red “X”. On the speaker’s stage, a large sign read, “Get Out America.”

Shia Cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, who helped organize the protest said, regarding the demand of the government that the US leave Iraq, “If the U.S. meets these demands, then it is not an aggressor country” but the US will become a “hostile country” if it fails to do so. Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani, the highest Shiite religious authority in Iraq said, “the need to respect the sovereignty of Iraq, the independence of its political decision, and its territorial unity.”

The Prime Minister and the Parliament called for US troops to leave Iraq. In a telephone call, Prime Minister Abdel Mahdi told Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to prepare to leave Iraq. Article 24 of the agreement between the US and Iraq regarding troops states that the “US recognizes the sovereign right of the government of Iraq to request the departure of the US forces from Iraq any time.” Pompeo gave a foolish answer, turning the US into an occupying force by saying, “The US shall not withdraw from Iraq” but inconsistently said it “respects its sovereignty and decisions.” President Trump threatened Iraq saying he would impose “sanctions like they’ve never seen before” and “its Central Bank account held at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York with $35 billion could be shut down.” US Ambassador to Iraq Mathew Tueller delivered to Iraqi officials a copy of all the possible US sanctions Iraq could face.

These responses led to mass protests. The threat to US troops is very real. Sources in Prime Minister Mahdi’s office said the US is “bringing war upon itself and transforming Iraq into a battlefield” if it fails to leave. He warns, “The US will be faced with strong and legitimate popular armed resistance.”

The current conflict needs to be viewed in the context of Iraq being devasted by US actions. The Clinton administration sanctions killed 500,000 children, and the US invasion and occupation, which followed in 2003, resulted in the deaths of over one million Iraqis. More recently, the US tried to extort Iraq by demanding half its oil profits in exchange for damages the US war caused. When the Prime Minister turned to China for assistance instead, Trump threatened Iraq. The Iraqi people have had enough of US intervention. It is time for the United States to leave.

The World Joins Opposition To War With Iran, Calls For US Out of The Middle East

On January 25, a Global Day of Protest was called in solidarity with the people of Iraq and Iran. There were protests in more than 210 cities in 22 countries. The protest was organized by numerous antiwar organizations including the United National Antiwar Coalition (UNAC), the ANSWER Coalition, CODE PINK, Black Alliance for Peace, the International Action Center, Popular Resistance and many more.

UNAC pointed out that Iran has been a victim of US aggression since the 1953 coup against the democratically-elected president Mohammed Mossadegh. This was followed by the brutal rule of the US-supported Shah of Iran until the 1979 Iranian Revolution. Sanctions were immediately imposed on Iran and from 1980-1988 the US fueled the Iran-Iraq war, which killed more than one million people. In 1988, the US shot down an Iranian civilian passenger plane, killing more than 290 Iranian civilians, for which the US has still not apologized for or explained. The US has imposed escalating crippling sanctions that have devastated Iran’s economy and the lives of its citizens. Trump’s unilateral withdrawal from the nuclear agreement has led to even more sanctions. Donald Trump’s order to assassinate General Soleimani was the culmination of his campaign of “maximum pressure” against the Islamic Republic of Iran supported by both Democrats and Republicans.

CODEPINK sent an open letter to the people of Iran expressing that the people of the United States are “horrified by the actions of our government to provoke a war…” and apologizing for the reckless actions of President Trump. They expressed opposition to the withdrawal of the United States from the nuclear agreement, the maximum-pressure campaign and the assassination of General Soleimani writing, “Poll after poll reveals that the American people do not want a war with Iran. We want to end the Middle East wars that the U.S. has engaged in for far too long.”

This weekend’s massive protests were the second protests since the US reignited the risk of war in Iraq and war against Iran. One day after the January 3 assassination of Qassem Soleimani, the renewed antiwar movement called for protests and thousands of protesters rallied in more than 82 cities in 38 states involving tens of thousands of people.

The world saying, “US out of the Middle East and no war on Iran”, and governments are also siding with Iran to end US hegemony. There are many countries coming to the side of Iran, perhaps most important are the Chinese-Iranian economic agreements, which have undermined US sanctions and integrated Iran into a Chinese-led Eurasian Belt and Road Initiative. The US deems this an imminent threat. In 2016, Iranian President Hassan Rohani announced during a visit from China’s President Xi Jinping that Iran and China had created a $600 billion dollar, 25-year political and trade alliance.

The military alliance developing between China, Russia, and Iran is another major threat to US domination. Iran, China, and Russia held joint naval drills in the Gulf of Oman, a “normal military exchange” that reflected the nations’ “will and capabilities to jointly maintain world peace and maritime security,” just days before the murder of Soleimani.

China and Russia have been critical to multiple countries under economic attack and military threats by the United States. This includes Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, North Korea, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia, and many others. A new balance of power is developing. The US peace movement needs to understand these realities and join a global movement against US imperialism.

Kevin Zeese and Margaret Flowers co-direct Popular Resistance. This article first appeared as the weekly newsletter of the organization.@MFlowers8.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:47 pm 
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World wide protests?

I haven't heard a peep.

Kobe, impeachment and the Kung Flu must be taking all of the oxygen out of the room.

BTW - do these authors want Iran and Russia out of Syria? Iran and Russia are propping up a minority sect that is terrorizing the majority population causing the refugee crisis that is overwhelming several European nations.


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