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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:50 am 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
Just clean up the smite stains when you are done.

To get serious for a minute, good job on the programming Mullet!!! *hug*


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Never tried a paddle.

Tried a riding crop once... But one mild whip across her arse, and HW was up off the bed, shrieking and jumping around.

Sort of killed the moment...

>&8~

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:24 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
That’s how everything is done nowadays. I also pine for the good old days when your shit came in a box with a printed manual and wasn’t constantly updated, but those days are gone.


totally agree, seems to be the way of the IT world these days, everything is just under constant development and never seems to be finished.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Junior-IRL wrote:
PBFMullethunter wrote:
That’s how everything is done nowadays. I also pine for the good old days when your shit came in a box with a printed manual and wasn’t constantly updated, but those days are gone.


totally agree, seems to be the way of the IT world these days, everything is just under constant development and never seems to be finished.


And that's one of the biggest criticisms of IT these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:31 pm 
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To be fair in the business world it's always been like that, nor a constant upgrading process than major changes (apart from windows OS, but it also seems that that's drawing to an end as well with windows 10.

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"I get irreversible brain herpes from Fuckwits"

"you stupid illiterate fucking bastard fuck. Maybe you should grab a dictionary instead, you fucking twat wanker. Oh, and fuck you and your stupid fucking boat. Fucking fuck.
Now fuck off out of this thread, you buttfucking fucking asshole." Slacks


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Junior-IRL wrote:
To be fair in the business world it's always been like that,


Not for a great many things. Most products and services are expected to launch completed and with what they advertise lest they find problems.

Or are you saying they can patch in new things to a line of toilet paper or a car as if it were perpetual beta software?

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:28 pm 
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There is no "launch" 90% of the software we use is bespoke & under constant development - it's not like you walk in to a shop & just buy a game off the shelf.

As far as consumer products like cars, etc. then yes I would expect it to work. But for the internal workings of a business, it's never actually finished.

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"I get irreversible brain herpes from Fuckwits"

"you stupid illiterate fucking bastard fuck. Maybe you should grab a dictionary instead, you fucking twat wanker. Oh, and fuck you and your stupid fucking boat. Fucking fuck.
Now fuck off out of this thread, you buttfucking fucking asshole." Slacks


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:34 pm 
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Junior-IRL wrote:
it's not like you walk in to a shop & just buy a game off the shelf.


Product As A Service style development is increasingly common in video games, and as a result the most widespread exposure of PaaS and all its flaws to the public square.

It's not working out anywhere near as well as you think.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Tesla is doing this with cars. Constant upgrades get downloaded over the air. Fuji has done the same with cameras...basically improving the thing with firmware every couple of months. It's just the way things go now. I have the Adobe creative cloud suite and it's pretty Damn awesome...thousands of dollars of software for about $30 a month. Not too shabby.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:35 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Junior-IRL wrote:
it's not like you walk in to a shop & just buy a game off the shelf.


Product As A Service style development is increasingly common in video games, and as a result the most widespread exposure of PaaS and all its flaws to the public square.

It's not working out anywhere near as well as you think.


Says man who does not work in IT.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Junior-IRL wrote:
it's not like you walk in to a shop & just buy a game off the shelf.


Product As A Service style development is increasingly common in video games, and as a result the most widespread exposure of PaaS and all its flaws to the public square.

It's not working out anywhere near as well as you think.


Says man who does not work in IT.


but he plays shitty XBOX games, therefore an industry expert


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:48 pm 
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I've been working with IT for 30 years.

And never once have I seen anything resembling a "Finished Product".

Have to bear in mind SG that technology advances so rapidly, an actual "Finished Product" would be obsolete in a year, and very much finished...

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
I've been working with IT for 30 years.

And never once have I seen anything resembling a "Finished Product".



The original Space Invaders was pretty slick.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:49 pm 
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That's true.

But released before I cut my IT teeth.

^:)^

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
I've been working with IT for 30 years.

And never once have I seen anything resembling a "Finished Product".

;)



My company has been dealing with the whole "Agile" approach with our software development and it has been a total nightmare. We should have stuck with "waterfall" and not dicked around with "minimal viable product" and "feature ready" software.

Our parent company gave us some "go faster" money to upgrade all of our software systems and we hired a bunch of software developers from Microsoft and Google that know nothing about our industry and have basically steam-rolled over our Product Development group basically saying "you are too stupid to understand what we are doing" and we don't need to be managed or pressured with deadlines. They rather work on "re-imagining" our systems instead of updating and fixing our old shit that we use every day.

The last 1.5 years we have been getting dribs and drabs of of "MVP" (minimum viable product) software features that are basically useless stand alone for my company's Operations team (along with our clients). So we are stuck still using the old legacy systems with the added work of trying to use these MVP features since they were not designed or meant to integrate with our existing systems. All the while I am getting pressure from our executive management to cut heads from my Division because the new MVP software pieces are supposed to increase efficiencies and they want to show a quick pay back. When it is all finished, for sure we will have efficiencies - but right now with MVP products - we are only adding work and complexity and killing morale.

So earlier this year, I basically had to run a coup with some of my colleagues to have an intervention with my CEO to set these Product Development and Software Developer fuckers straight and getting them to admit that Agile has been a total fucking failure in our environment.

The software development team hates me now because they now report to our R&D director and are being held accountable on delivering. But fuck em. My guys in the field do life threatening work almost every day - we don't need shitty MVP products adding work and complexity - ultimately increasing our risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:
I've been working with IT for 30 years.

And never once have I seen anything resembling a "Finished Product".

;)



My company has been dealing with the whole "Agile" approach with our software development and it has been a total nightmare. We should have stuck with "waterfall" and not dicked around with "minimal viable product" and "feature ready" software.

Our parent company gave us some "go faster" money to upgrade all of our software systems and we hired a bunch of software developers from Microsoft and Google that know nothing about our industry and have basically steam-rolled over our Product Development group basically saying "you are too stupid to understand what we are doing" and we don't need to be managed or pressured with deadlines. They rather work on "re-imagining" our systems instead of updating and fixing our old shit that we use every day.

The last 1.5 years we have been getting dribs and drabs of of "MVP" (minimum viable product) software features that are basically useless stand alone for my company's Operations team (along with our clients). So we are stuck still using the old legacy systems with the added work of trying to use these MVP features since they were not designed or meant to integrate with our existing systems. All the while I am getting pressure from our executive management to cut heads from my Division because the new MVP software pieces are supposed to increase efficiencies and they want to show a quick pay back. When it is all finished, for sure we will have efficiencies - but right now with MVP products - we are only adding work and complexity and killing morale.

So earlier this year, I basically had to run a coup with some of my colleagues to have an intervention with my CEO to set these Product Development and Software Developer fuckers straight and getting them to admit that Agile has been a total fucking failure in our environment.

The software development team hates me now because they now report to our R&D director and are being held accountable on delivering. But fuck em. My guys in the field do life threatening work almost every day - we don't need shitty MVP products adding work and complexity - ultimately increasing our risk.


Sounds like the programme is being driven by the developers and not the stakeholders.

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:07 pm 
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The whole concept of MVP is fucking garbage... hate it. Fortunately we know that's never gonna fly with engineers so it's a non-starter.

But it does explain why just about every 'new' consumer app sucks balls and is completely worthless.

Combine "agile", "scrum", "lean", "MVP" and "UX" developers and you have a bunch of fucking useless people making useless shit, most of them being too young to realize it yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:21 pm 
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Slacks wrote:

Sounds like the programme is being driven by the developers and not the stakeholders.


Yep - and it is so maddening because we put 2 experienced engineers/managers (who know our industry well - but not software development) to represent the stakeholders and help set priorities.

By all accounts, the new software developers we brought on strong-armed our stakeholder representatives into accepting their "Agile" schedule and way of doing things.

After a frustrating year, we had the coup and intervention - so now me and 3 of my other colleagues that run North American Operations are responsible for approving and setting their priorities and get to test their MVP features before releasing to the organization and our customers.

When I get frustrated that one of their new MVP features doesn't do what our old systems can currently do they say "We are not replacing it, we are re-imagining it". I'm like - "listen fuckers, you know fuck-all what our organization, let alone what our municipal customers need - you are in no position to re-imagine jack shit. Do your fucking job and replace what we have providing us the same features we have now with our legacy systems at minimum, then you go off on your pet projects and re-imagine stuff."

That said, they have built a great platform foundation using Azure and the Cloud giving us access to Microsoft's machine learning and it should be great in the future. But currently, it's like they gave us a Tesla with a state of the art motor and battery, but we don't have a steering wheel or tires to drive the thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:32 pm 
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We've had similar issues where developers who don't even know the problem domain are trying to tell the experts what they want rather than listening and simply implementing what they want.

It's a virus born of nerdy hubris and gullibility (succumbing to the latest 'trends').

Don't let it carry on, or you will find yourself in the exact same place a decade from now, with "products" that don't do what anyone wants.

"Re-imagined?" Tell those guys to re-imagine getting smacked in the head.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:12 pm 
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Even worse, before the coup - my CEO and HR were all sold on "Agile" and had senior managers like me read a bunch of books and articles on it wanting us to try and implement it and develop a "flatocracy" in our divisions.

I already have a pretty flat org chart with very few middle managers. I have people spread out working in 5 offices covering the West Coast, Hawaii and Canada. We work in dangerous environments that requires our field operations to follow a ton of legal and safety procedures required by individual States and Cities. We can't dramatically change our processes on a dime - and it is not an exaggeration to say that lives could be at stake if we don't follow procedures and chain of command.

So back in May after the coup I was having drinks with my CEO and said "Since Agile was a total failure with this new software group, have you had second thoughts about pushing it on the rest of the organization?"

He said something along the lines "we have to keep trying, it is worked so well for all of these other companies"

I then joked "You are like the old Commie saying that "real" Communism hasn't been implemented correctly yet!"

He chuckled and we haven't heard much about Agile, Lean, Scrum and all of the other bullshit fads our new software people were trying to push on us the last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:23 am 
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Yep. All that happening here too. Sucks. Now we have the big data guys thinking they can predict the future from the past. Brave new world.

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Change is the Law of The Universe

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:10 am 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
We've had similar issues where developers who don't even know the problem domain are trying to tell the experts what they want rather than listening and simply implementing what they want.

It's a virus born of nerdy hubris and gullibility (succumbing to the latest 'trends').

Don't let it carry on, or you will find yourself in the exact same place a decade from now, with "products" that don't do what anyone wants.

"Re-imagined?" Tell those guys to re-imagine getting smacked in the head.

I like this a lot! :x


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:09 pm 
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The key dynamic I find in places that are trying to adopt “New Ways of Working” is that people try to “weaponise the dogma”.

At least, that’s the phrase I use to describe it…

There’s a certain type of Office Worker who lacks any discernible talent, expertise or personality, doesn’t add any value to an End Product or Service, isn’t particularly well-liked (due to the absence of personality), but who somehow believes they have a complete and comprehensive understanding of “what this place needs…”, and a “fool-proof [sic]” plan that will “transform everything”.

Mostly male and over 40, this type can be further sub-divided into two main classes:

i) The class that sits around the office pontificating, highlighting flaws, tut-tutting at the “foolish mistakes” of others…

But who never commits anything to a written form that others can assess and respond to accordingly and professionally.

ii) The type who is constantly searching for the next “Management Fad”, in the hope that it can be used as the basis for a whole new System of Management, that grateful colleagues and employers will forever recognize and reward them for……..

It’s the second type that is the more problematic, from the perspective of my function.

Agile, Lean, PRINCE2, Six-Sigma, Statistical Process Control, Myers-Briggs, Neuro-Linguistic Programming… Is to name but a handful of popular management theories that have been doing the rounds for the past few decades.

But where 2nd Class Management always screws up, is approaching these theories as dogma, as Complete Systems, that require substantial Cultural Overhaul in the workplace.

When in fact they are all just Toolboxes.

With Tools in them.

Some of which tools, when applied correctly, at the right time, on the right objective, can make certain tasks easier than trying to do the same tasks without any tools.

Management has nearly always spoiled the ground I have to work on, with aborted attempts to implement Agile, Lean, Self-Organising Teams &c., as a Top-Down Management Injunction.

Telling someone who has been working away quite happily for the previous 784 years doing the same job that they’ve been working “wrong” and now have to work completely differently, never works out.

The dynamic is as simple as it is observable:

Manager A doesn’t know how Engineer B does her job; he only knows she has been doing it for 20 years, without any complaints about quality or delivery.

But Manager A is on a totalitarian crusade to implement Management Fad C: so Engineer B better shape-up or ship-out!

(Oh how Engineer B and Management Consultant H laugh at such futile behavior..!)

Of course, the Engineers (correctly) perceive this as the Manager admitting they don’t know how to manage, have been making it up as they went along all these years, and are now desperately trying to become High Priest of Agile/Lean/PRINCE2/Whatever…

Or at the least, conflate any productivity gains achieved by New Ways of Working, with their own undoubted but sadly unrecognized Genius.

(Engineers don’t always articulate it this way; but are usually thrilled when I tell them that is how I’m going to be describing their manager’s approach, in my report to the Executive.)

So what’s the “Correct” method of implementing “New Ways of Working”?

Bottom-Up.

It’s the Only Way to get anything done, if you want it to stay done.

First off:

Your* Engineers aren’t bad at their jobs, or you would have kicked them out long ago.

(*You guys get that I’m in MC-Mode here, not talking specifically about *YOUR* Engineers/staff, right?)

They are just not being allowed to work as well as they could be… As well as they *WANT* to be working.

And that’s usually because there is a petrified manager immediately above them in the Corporate Food Chain, who is trying to force Engineers to work in a way that doesn’t really suit them.

And that way is:

A single orthodoxy that requires individual Engineers/staff to all use the same methods and processes.

Doesn’t matter whether that’s a paleo-management style from back in the ‘80’s; or the latest, all-singing, all-Agile “Ways of Working”.

One Size (of Management) Fucks All.

Try and create an aggregate methodology and/or processes, that follow a mean line through the curve showing how different people work, and you end up with a way of working that doesn’t suit *ANYONE*…

(Except the manager… Briefly… Until someone points out how his “Great Leap Forward” has more or less completely eliminated Productivity…)

The Correct Approach:

Meet your Engineers/Staff where they are.

What’s important to them? How do they like to work? What parts of their work do they find really interesting? What do they find tedious? And is there anything they are struggling with?

And Listen.

That’s the *MOST* important bit.

No point going through an empty “survey” exercise, just to figure out how much arm-twisting (and how many redundancies) will be required to implement your Dreams of Order…

No. You’ve got to actually listen to your (productive) staff, and then use your Managerial/personal abilities to help them develop (*NOT* “improve”!) their:
i) Positivity
ii) Performance
iii) Productivity.

In that order.

And you do that by gaining the kind of insight and understanding into your Engineer’s experience of a typical day, that a decent Manager would already possess.

Then, when (and only when) your Engineer is starting to feel like you “get” what his or her job actually involves, will you earn the right to offer and suggest alternative methods of achieving the required outputs.

But even then, you’re not on a Mission to Convert. You are just offering tools and methods that the Engineer *MAY* feel will help them in certain areas of their work.

In my Experience…

Out of 10 Engineers:

1 will become a “New Ways of Working” Evangelist. He or she will embrace NWoW Theories as a breath of fresh air, and will (once suitably inculcated into the Arcane Mysteries of NWoW…) become your Champion.

1 will give you nothing but cynicism, resistance, dismissal &c. (In other words: Fear.) He can be safely ignored. Chances are he’ll run to try and catch-up, once enough others have boarded the NWoW Train and it departs…

The other 8 will follow a typical bell-curve distribution between those two outliers.

And you will focus your energies on developing the median quantile. Your top quartile will take care of themselves, quickly (were probably already trying to do it before you unveiled your “initiative”); and your bottom quartile are only there to illustrate the Law of Diminishing Returns.

So you just coach and mentor (keep “training” minimal or non-existent) your mid-motive resources, until your Champion(s) are up-to-speed…

…And then leave the Team alone to figure out how they can work most effectively, productively and meaningfully.

You just set the Outputs:

1) Required delivery date

2) Required specification.

And leave your Team to work unhindered by your delusions about your status within the Enterprise.

(It’s no wonder I get so many referrals…)

B-)

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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:14 am 
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Holyman wrote:
Never tried a paddle.

Tried a riding crop once... But one mild whip across her arse, and HW was up off the bed, shrieking and jumping around.

Sort of killed the moment...

>&8~

I'm laughing my ass off over here..... =))


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 Post subject: Re: Changing Banks
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:40 am 
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She wears leather trousers these days, when she wants stripes.

B-)

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