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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:58 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Certainly not a good path.

But an easy, lazy one.

>&8~


Sounds like something a Liberal would say.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Why it's almost as if taking a partisan view and sticking rigidly to it even in the face of evidence to the contrary isn't a good path to take.


Chomsky and HM can put out 100,000 words together blaming ANOTHER Socialist failure on the United States. Nothing new there.

Notice that Chomsky didn't say a word about the disastrous Price Control policies of Chavez and Maduro. How else does a country run out of basic staples like toilet paper, flour, soap, toothpaste............along with the hyperinflation that comes with it? It is one of the easiest economic principles to understand. If morons in the government like Chavez use the awesome power of the Centralized State to force people to sell their products at or below the cost it takes to make them.............people stop making stuff and will go out of business.

These shortages along withe accompanying starvation came long before Obama started sanctioning Regime leaders who were looting the treasury.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Why it's almost as if taking a partisan view and sticking rigidly to it even in the face of evidence to the contrary isn't a good path to take.


Chomsky and HM can put out 100,000 words together blaming ANOTHER Socialist failure on the United States. Nothing new there.


But it isn't Socialism.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Foota wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Why it's almost as if taking a partisan view and sticking rigidly to it even in the face of evidence to the contrary isn't a good path to take.


Chomsky and HM can put out 100,000 words together blaming ANOTHER Socialist failure on the United States. Nothing new there.


But it isn't Socialism.


Are you saying that the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (which is the controlling political party under Chavez and Maduro) is not Socialist in how they govern?


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:12 pm 
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That's it? They call themselves socialist and it makes them socialist?

Does this mean you accept dudes who call themselves chicks as chicks?

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:19 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
That's it? They call themselves socialist and it makes them socialist?



Up is Down

Dry is Wet

And Slacks seems to be saying Venezuela's ruling Socialist Party are not Socialists enacting Socialist policies.

Price controls and nationalizing the country's biggest industry (oil) is super Capitalistic!


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:06 pm 
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Never said they were capitalistic either.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:19 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Are you saying that the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (which is the controlling political party under Chavez and Maduro) is not Socialist in how they govern?


Are you saying that the The German Democratic Republic (German: Deutsche Demokratische Republik (DDR), commonly called East Germany, was not democratic?

How about the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, aka North Korea? Surely that is both a republic and a democracy? The name says so!

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:41 pm 
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Good grief you people.

It's like arguing "the Islamic State isn't Islamic!"

Quote:
The United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Spanish: Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela, PSUV) is a socialist political party in Venezuela which resulted from the fusion of some of the political and social forces that support the Bolivarian Revolution led by President Hugo Chávez.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_So ... _Venezuela


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 12:17 am 
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Foota wrote:
Good grief you people.

It's like arguing "the Islamic State isn't Islamic!"

Quote:
The United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Spanish: Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela, PSUV) is a NOMINALLY socialist political party in Venezuela[/u] which resulted from the fusion of some of the political and social forces that support the Bolivarian Revolution led by President Hugo Chávez.


Fixored.

Jesus, just because a country calls itself something like Democratic or Socialist doesn't mean it is. Fuck sake, is the Chinese communist party communist? My arse it is.
Same with Venezuela, the government party wears the mantle of socialism, but is in fact led by an inept, corrupt bunch of crooks, allied with a military that is so far in on the scam the military top brass daren't let the people regain control, nor even worse allow US puppets to fuck it up for them. It's about as socialist as, er, Donald Trump.

Also:

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 3:06 am 
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El Sid wrote:
Foota wrote:
Good grief you people.

It's like arguing "the Islamic State isn't Islamic!"

Quote:
The United Socialist Party of Venezuela (Spanish: Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela, PSUV) is a NOMINALLY socialist political party in Venezuela[/u] which resulted from the fusion of some of the political and social forces that support the Bolivarian Revolution led by President Hugo Chávez.


Fixored.

Jesus, just because a country calls itself something like Democratic or Socialist doesn't mean it is. Fuck sake, is the Chinese communist party communist? My arse it is.
Same with Venezuela, the government party wears the mantle of socialism, but is in fact led by an inept, corrupt bunch of crooks, allied with a military that is so far in on the scam the military top brass daren't let the people regain control, nor even worse allow US puppets to fuck it up for them. It's about as socialist as, er, Donald Trump.

Also:

Image


Farmers have been getting all types of government subsidies for decades. It’s a combination of welfare, protection of critical assets and protection from unfair markets or uncontrollable environmental conditions.

Sometimes it’s a complete waste of tax payer dollars,other times it makes sense. Most of the time both.

And whats being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” have with not being socialists, can’t you be both?

I’m guessing Hitler, Goring, Himmler and Goebbels Weren’t real Nazis because they were also “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks”? :-?

I’m sure people have been bitching about government officials being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” since the dawn of civilization.

:>_

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:58 am 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
And whats being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” have with not being socialists, can’t you be both?

I’m guessing Hitler, Goring, Himmler and Goebbels Weren’t real Nazis because they were also “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks”? :-?

I’m sure people have been bitching about government officials being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” since the dawn of civilization.

:>_


My point was that despite the best wishes of the people, the elites who run Venezuela are not socialists they are at best nincompoops and at worst, self serving cunts.

Socialists, and especially Russian communists, can be gobsmackingly inept, corrupt and especially crooks, same a Democrats or Republicans or any government really, especially the current mob of Muppets in Oz.

Stalin's inner circle were all three and more (as in heartless psychopaths like Stalin himself and especially Beria). Indeed Stalin was a petty gangster to the core and acted that way until the end.

Speaking of which, I just watched The Death of Stalin (in fact comrades, I watched it twice it was so good). Thoroughly recommend it; it's fucking hilarious. Really well done, every actor nails it, especially Beria, Khrushchev and Zhukov. Available on Googley Play for a few kopecks...banned in Russia of course.

phpBB [video]


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:23 pm 
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El Sid wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
And whats being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” have with not being socialists, can’t you be both?

I’m guessing Hitler, Goring, Himmler and Goebbels Weren’t real Nazis because they were also “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks”? :-?

I’m sure people have been bitching about government officials being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” since the dawn of civilization.

:>_


My point was that despite the best wishes of the people, the elites who run Venezuela are not socialists they are at best nincompoops and at worst, self serving cunts.

Socialists, and especially Russian communists, can be gobsmackingly inept, corrupt and especially crooks, same a Democrats or Republicans or any government really, especially the current mob of Muppets in Oz.



I couldn't agree more Sid. Even the best of humanity can be corrupted and become destructive if given too much political power. Humans are fallible and corrupt.

So we are back to another example of "They did Socialism wrong"....."They did Communism wrong"......trust me it works on paper!

The fundamental and un-fixable problem with Marxist/Socialist/Communist ruling systems is that it centralizes too much power and we are governed by morons.

I think this is a pretty good argument to keep the government as small, diffuse, local and as limited in our daily lives as humanly possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 2:27 am 
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Foota wrote:
El Sid wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
And whats being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” have with not being socialists, can’t you be both?

I’m guessing Hitler, Goring, Himmler and Goebbels Weren’t real Nazis because they were also “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks”? :-?

I’m sure people have been bitching about government officials being “inept, corrupt bunch of crooks” since the dawn of civilization.

:>_


My point was that despite the best wishes of the people, the elites who run Venezuela are not socialists they are at best nincompoops and at worst, self serving cunts.

Socialists, and especially Russian communists, can be gobsmackingly inept, corrupt and especially crooks, same a Democrats or Republicans or any government really, especially the current mob of Muppets in Oz.





I couldn't agree more Sid. Even the best of humanity can be corrupted and become destructive if given too much political power. Humans are fallible and corrupt.

So we are back to another example of "They did Socialism wrong"....."They did Communism wrong"......trust me it works on paper!

The fundamental and un-fixable problem with Marxist/Socialist/Communist ruling systems is that it centralizes too much power and we are governed by morons.

I think this is a pretty good argument to keep the government as small, diffuse, local and as limited in our daily lives as humanly possible.



We had a pretty good example of democratic socialism in play here in Oz, when I was young.

Our economy was in the black, yet the people owned the main bank (The Commonwealth Bank, named after the Commonwealth of Australia, our official name), we owned all the power stations and the grid, we built and owned the Snowy Mountains project, the largest infrastructure project in our history. The railways were all owned by the people (most still are). All education was free, including university and post grad studies and public schools were well funded and of high quality. We had universal health care, two state owned broadcasting services etc etc.

Gradually however greedy bastards have been trying to dismantle a lot of that, with the usual cry of "efficiency". So the power stations were sold off and we now pay the highest charges for electricity of just about anybody, while the owners won't build any new power stations, so the price goes up even higher.

The conservatives sold the Commonwealth Bank...fees went through the roof along with executive pay cheques and bonuses. Other private banks followed suit.

Rupert Murdoch hates our free TV channels with no ads, so he's been pulling the strings of his conservative puppets to underfund them, with a view to selling them off.

They sold Telstra, the telephone and internet backbone, so they now charge the highest rates for internet in the country.

University fees now cost a fortune, if you can get in, while your loans will cripple you for years, as all the government universities have been underfunded. So they now actively sell places to foreign students to make ends meet. They have been turned from places of excellence in learning to giant scams, where post grad IT students cannot turn on a computer...where students can't speak English still get in and pass (as reported by academics blowing the whistle last week). After all, it's a 36 billion dollar "industry" now...pandering to Chinese, Indian and especially Nepalese rich kids who leave as dumb as they entered, many of them.

I could go on, but you get the picture. Democratic socialism can work...we are after all the world's most stable democracy with a healthy economy. Yet untrammelled capitalism and corrupt politicians can fuck it up very fast if dumbass voters keep electing tools for the elites.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:35 pm 
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I don't believe Foota knows what Socialism actually is.

If he did (or if he paid attention to Chomsky in the video Sid posted), he'd know that Venezuela is about as Socialist as my right bollock.

I think he's confused by the fact that when the U.S. Government uses the term "Socialist", it actually means "Target".

>&8~

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:38 pm 
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Also:

The political party that ruled Germany from 1933 - 1945 called itself the National Socialist Party.

Fairly certain that Hitler and his fascist cronies weren't Socialists...

:-$

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
If he did (or if he paid attention to Chomsky in the video Sid posted), he'd know that Venezuela is about as Socialist as my right bollock.


Don't you mean your left one?

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:51 pm 
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Sadly not.

My left testicle strongly believes that workers should co-operatively own the Means of Production.

Unlike my cock, which is Communist, and believes the State should own the MoP.

(My arsehole is an Anarcho-Syndicalist and doesn't support any form of centralised control or ownership.)

>&8~

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:42 pm 
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My testicles provide the means of reproduction while the penis delivers the output. My arse on the other hand is a failed state.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:57 pm 
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I knew it.

Every thread on this forum ends up being about Slack's arse. Or if we are talking about Foota's notion of socialism, a slack-arse.


Last edited by El Sid on Mon May 13, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:20 pm 
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El Sid wrote:
I knew it.

Every thread on this forum ends up being about Slack's arse. Or of we are talking about Foota's notion of socialism, a slack-arse.




Yup. He's obsessed.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 pm 
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MAY 14, 2019

Venezuelan Communes Protect the State

by ROBERT HUNZIKER


Direct democracy works like a charm. Check out Venezuela’s Communes….

Venezuela’s ubiquitous Communes are proof that direct democracy works. And, interestingly enough, those same Communes are powerful buffers to attempted coups, protecting the sanctity of direct democracy in their country.

In all likelihood, John Bolton and Trump and Pence and Pompeo and Rubio were shocked beyond recognition by the failed coup attempt they helped orchestrate to overpower a democratically elected government south of the border, colloquially known as extending the concept of Manifest Destiny to its fullest extent.

To Bolton’s/Rubio’s dismay, opposition leader Juan Guaidó proved to be a clown dressed up as a proponent of democratic spirits, a motivator, a savior. Well, he’s been tossed into the dustbin as a miserable failure, an international pariah who has been shamed into seclusion. His American co-conspirators look like big fat dupes.

Interestingly enough, the citizens of Venezuela did not answer Juan Guaidó’s official call to assemble, to revolt, and eliminate Maduro, overthrowing the dictator. Those were the instructions to a public that remained dead silent and in place. Nobody showed up for the well-advertised great event, as Juan Guaidó wanted to “Make Venezuela Great Again.”

Only in the U.S. do people fall for such claptrap. Venezuela’s politically astute citizens know hollow sloganeering when they hear it. After all, they have direct democracy that works like a charm, why change anything?

Localized political orders, Communes in Venezuela, have proven to be a safety net for families and their communities. It’s direct democracy at work, and it works remarkably well under the toughest of circumstances, as tough as it gets, which goes to demonstrate the mettle of direct democracy.

As for proof of the effectiveness and importance and steadfastness of Venezuela’s Communes, the Indio Caricuao Commune in southwest Caracas was one of the first targets of Juan Guaidó’s supporters. They looted the Commune and set fire to its headquarters. Local residents used the building for meetings, and it housed a Commune-operated textile mill, which funded projects for the local community.

It’s instructive that Guaidó’s supporters selected a prominent Commune as their first line of attack and not Maduro. Of course, the logical upshot to that tactical move is that they recognized the power of Communes superseding the power of Maduro, which in fact, is the case throughout the country of Venezuela. Maduro is more figurehead than manipulator of the political strings. The people control those strings via direct democracy, by and large, throughout all of Venezuela.

Under the tutelage of former president Hugo Chavez, Communes were established. He viewed the Communes as “fundamental building blocks of a new communal state” based upon self-management by local democracy, by local communities.

Nowadays, according to Venezuela’s Ministry of Communes, the country has nearly 47,000 registered communal councils throughout the country and close to 3,000 Communes. The Communes have been consolidating their networks now for over a decade and represent a powerful force in the country, arguably, more powerful than President Maduro.

According to Commune leaders like Gsus Garcia of the Altos de Lidice Socialist Commune, they acknowledge that Chavistas (Chavez supporters) were at the heart of creation of Communes, but the Communes include residents that oppose Maduro and some that favor him. Their focus is on their local community, not on Maduro. (Source: Frederico Fuentes, Venezuela’s Crisis: A View From The Communes, Countercurrents, May 12, 2019)

A prime example is the Panal 2021 Commune, c0nsisting of 3,600 families. The Commune initially funded itself by holding raffles and received state funds, but now it is self-financing and self-managed. Panal 2012 has (1) its own bakeries, (2) a textile mill, (3) a sugar packaging plant and (4) an expansive food storage and distribution centre to make sure no families go hungry.

Proceeds from communally operated businesses are deposited in a communal bank with citizen’s assemblies deciding how to redistribute funds for community projects. It is direct democracy at work.

Similarly, all across the land, Communes generate their own revenue and take care of their local communities. No state funds needed. Not only do Communes take care of local communities, but the Communes have also resorted to feeding urban centers that are not organized, as Panal 2021 linked up with other Communes in the countryside to bring food to the cities and sell it at much cheaper prices than private supermarkets. Thus, Venezuelans are fed via direct democracy at work.

According to sources in Venezuela: “Regardless of what happens next in Venezuela… the strong level of community organization built up over the past two decades will not go away easily. There’s still a lot of strength, a high level of organization. Wherever you look, you will find a commune, a cooperative, and some kind of committee or organization… If [the government] was to fall, that organization will still be here; this huge spirit of participation will still exist, and it will be a problem for any government that tries to dismantle it,” Ibid.

It is likely that international media sources have mischaracterized the status of Venezuela with a feeding frenzy of falsehoods that simply fed on its own storylines. But, then again, that’s the new normal.

Meanwhile, in spite of extreme dire circumstances, and including some cases of people suffering, by and large, Venezuela is beholden to Communes that take care of their own communities, feed them, clothe them, doctor them, and protect them, families working together to determine their own destiny.

It’s called direct democracy. It works!

Postscript: On Contact with Chris Hedges interviewed reporter Ben Norton, who spent one month in Venezuela. That video can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23H-HNYmDnc

Robert Hunziker lives in Los Angeles and can be reached at rlhunziker@gmail.com.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:56 am 
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Interesting read, comrade. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 8:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:04 pm 
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MAY 15, 2019

How Billionaires Define Socialism

by MANUEL E. YEPE


It wasn’t surprising to hear multi-billionaires Bill Gates, Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, interviewed on CNBC-TV on Thursday, May 9, defending capitalism. But it was indeed surprising that Gates made a positive comment about socialism, or at least about what is defined in the United States as socialism.

Gates pointed out that the current increase in pro-socialist rhetoric in the United States does not really refer to socialism according to any conventional definition of the word. The “socialist” policies that we hear from politicians like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) and Bernie Sanders are, to a greater extent, about capitalist policies with a strong social security contribution. And that is good!

“Socialism used to mean that a State controlled the means of production”, and, according to Gates, “many people here who promote socialism do not define it in that classical way.”

Gates also says that most people who favor socialism in the United States do not speak of true socialism. And they’re right!

“The majority does not argue against capitalism… only believes that there should be changes in taxes, more progressive tax rates, and the reinstatement of estate tax. What they actually want is capitalism with a better level of taxation,” says Gates.

According to him, most left-wing Americans do not advocate the ownership of the means of production to be passed on to the workers, that all industries be nationalized, and that private property be abolished, which are the real principles of socialist ideology.

The majority of left-wing people support politicians who promise capitalism with a solid social security foundation. But there is no indication that what they are proposing is truly socialism.

The federal employment guarantee of AOC, for example, would consist of a reference standard for employment that would include a minimum wage of $15 linked to inflation, full medical care, and paid leave for sickness and children.

This proposal would drastically improve the quality of employment in the United States by giving training and experience to the workers and at the same time providing much needed public services to communities in areas such as, education, health, park maintenance, childcare, and environment conservation.

But that’s not socialism in the classic sense of the word. It is capitalism with a strong social safety net. The majority of rich countries in Europe already have what AOC proposes. That doesn’t make them socialists. In any case, it makes them social democrats.

The United States does not have a Social Democratic party, thus, anything to the left of the Democratic Party is called socialism, because Americans do not have a vocabulary that would allow them to speak of these things with greater subtlety than that of a left against a binary right.

Why people like Bernie Sanders and AOC are labeled as socialists, and even sometimes they call themselves by that term?

Because Fox News spent Obama’s years calling all the Democratic Party’s policies so. As a result, there are two generations (Millennials and Generation Z) who simply use the term socialist without worrying too much about what it exactly means.

For the younger generations, socialism only means making sure that everyone can go to the doctor when they need it, or have a roof over their heads, or have money to buy food, regardless of that person’s circumstances.

And these generations believe that all of these can be achieved within the existing system, without overthrowing the ruling class and the setting of a new political system led by the working class.

As Gates points out, there are some real socialists in the world. And there are even real socialists in governments all over the world. But most American socialists are simply leftists who disregard party labels and talk about policies. Bill Gates knows this and Donald Trump knows it too.

It’s not that Bill Gates is progressive. Guys like Gates know clearly that the guillotines are coming, and if the United States continues along the path of austerity and tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires, anything can happen.

According to available information, Gates is worth more than $101 billion dollars, which should literally be considered a crime in a civilized society in which 13 million children do not have enough to eat. But, for now, we will have to accept that at least there are some multi-billionaires who recognize the need for real changes in global society.

Manuel E. Yepe is a lawyer, economist and journalist. He is a professor at the Higher Institute of International Relations in Havana.

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