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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:51 am 
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Hold my hand.

The *HEAVILY* indebted U.S. Economy is more or less entirely dependent these days on maintenance of the Petrodollar System.

Once that is gone, the United States collapses economically, politically, and socially.

So the primary objective of the U.S. Government is to maintain the Petrodollar System.

There’s another benefit that accrues to the U.S. Government from the Petrodollar System, and that is the ability of the U.S. Government to unilaterally apply Economic Sanctions to other nations, by restricting or blocking access to the SWIFT payment system.

The single current and biggest threat to the Petrodollar System, would materialise if and when Venezuela starts selling oil to China, without using the U.S. Dollar.

Now aside from all the other bullshit associated with the U.S. Government, politicians and functionaries in that sclerotic institution have both a legal and moral requirement to defend the best interests of the People of the United States of America.

In regard to that requirement/responsibility, U.S. politicians are no different to any other nations’ politicians.

And since Venezuela selling oil to China (and other customers) in a currency other than the U.S. Dollar will precipitate the more or less immediate collapse of the U.S. Economy (and Society…)…

…Why *WOULDN’T* the U.S. Government work to prevent Venezuela from doing that?

But of course, the only reason Trump & Co. (and all Administrations before and to come) can't make that clear to the U.S. Polity, is because it would require exposure and therefore examination of the Petrodollar System that has kept the U.S. afloat since the 1970's.

Capiche?

>*^*<

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:13 am 
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MAY 1, 2019

It Looks Like Another Failed US Coup in Venezuela

by DAVE LINDORFF


The imperialist neocons infesting the Trump administration, and the orange-faced joke of a president himself, may think they can invent their own reality through propaganda, as Bush’s “brain” Karl Rove used to claim about the Bush/Cheney administration, but when it comes to Latin America, they fail to realize how deeply the people of that continent loath and resent the US and its colonial-era Monroe Doctrine.

The failure of the latest coup plotted so carefully in the war rooms of the White House, Pentagon and CIA was pre-ordained as soon as it became clear that Washington’s chosen puppet Juan Gerardo Guaidó Márquez was nothing more than a creation of theirs, meant to do the bidding of the plotters in DC.

By the time Guaidó appeared on a bridge in Caracas flanked by the opposition leader Leopoldo Lopez, whom defecting Venezuelan soldiers had reportedly released from house arrest where he had been sentenced for fomenting violence, along with a handful of troops from one unit, many of whom, reportedly, had been tricked into showing up by their commanding officers, and who fled when they realized they were being asked to shoot at fellow soldiers of the Venezuelan military, Guaidó’s attempt to create a coup by televising a staged one was already collapsing around him.

In short order, troops and officers who had supported Guaidó began entering foreign embassies like Brazil’s and Chile’s and Spain’s, seeking asylum. Opposition leader Lopez, who clearly recognized the coup had failed, left Guaido’s side quickly and, with his family, sought asylum in the Chilean embassy, later moving with them to the nicer and perhaps safer quarters of the Spanish embassy.

The latest charade harks back to the 2002 coup, actually a much more serious attempt to kidnap and oust the popular elected president Hugo Chavez. That time, while many top generals backe the coup, the enlisted ranks backed Chavez and forced the generals to back down — but not before the Bush/Cheney administration had already hastily recognized the coup leaders as the new government, showing their hand as being behind that assault on Venezuelan democracy.

This time, the generals are backing Chavez’s successor Nicolás Maduro Moros, as are most of the military rank and file. But the script is similar, with Washington planning the overthrow of the country’s president and instantly throwing its support behind the puppet who stands up and declares himself to be the new presidente. And this time too, the people have rallied to their elected leader, massing at the Presidential Palace as before to defend their country’s sovereignty and democracy.

As in 2002, the US corporate media have soiled themselves trumpeting the popularity of a coup that is actually widely loathed by the Venezuelan people. The US media also shamelessly pedaled fake news put out by Washington, suggesting that Russia had to prevent Maduro from fleeing to Cuba, that the Venezuelan military was abandoning Maduro, and that the coup was victorious. It is a shameful spectacle of corporate propaganda at work.

How this will all play out at this point is too early to tell. Will Guaidó end up being arrested and tried for treason for this latest move on his part? Will he be plucked to safety and spirited away to the US by some daring Navy Seal rescue? Will he hide out in the Brazilian or Colombian embassy? It’s hard to say but after this disaster, his utility to his Washington handlers is zero, so he’ll likely be on his own at this point. If he’s lucky he won’t end up being denied asylum in the US by the Trump Immigration Office as just another Latin American moocher, which in his case would be a uniquely accurate characterization.

Kudos to the people of Venezuela for standing up for their sovereignty.

Maduro surely has his faults as a leader. But most of his problems have nothing to do with personal failings or lack of that charisma and human warmth that his mentor Chavez had in such abundance, but are the result of both the huge decline in oil prices that have left him unable to fund the programs that made Chavez’s Bolivarian revolution so hugely popular among the Venezuelan masses, and of massive economic warfare being conducted by the US government against Venezuela, including the blocking of oil exports and the sanctioning of goods going into the country.

As with Cuba, long a target of American economic warfare, the people of Venezuela know who is making their lives miserable, and that it is the same imperial power across the Caribbean that just attempted to steal their elected government and impose one subservient to its own interests.

And it looks like they have once again foiled Washington’s attempt to accomplish this.

If any foreign powers come out looking good in this farce of a coup it is Russia and Cuba, both of which stood by Venezuela despite threats from the US.

Those two countries certainly a lot better than the 50 governments — puppets all — that bowed to US pressure and recognized the pathetic unelected Guaidó as the “legitimate president” of Venezuela and that now look like fools and stooges.

Dave Lindorff is a founding member of ThisCantBeHappening!, an online newspaper collective, and is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion (AK Press).

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Yankee Imperialists bad :(

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:53 pm 
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No worse than any of History's other Imperialists, particularly the British.

I'd say incompetent, rather than bad.

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Htown0666 wrote:

Still with Holyman tho
It's not our fight


Sure - but they will soon be in your backyard in Texas as more and more desperate Venezuelans (and Central Americans) flee Socialism's manifest failures.

I wish they could get their shit together.

Russia, China and Iran are not even in our hemisphere, but they are making it their fight by propping Maduro up - and prolonging the suffering.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:40 pm 
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They can come here, I don't care. Could use a little more Español practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:19 am 
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Sure - but they will soon be in your backyard in Texas
Soon he says lol

We had 100,000 people last month
It's nothing tho
Certainly not an emergency

Guess what we do when we hit capacity (and we already are)?
We release them scott free with a court date they can just skip
Then the go to whatever state they want
They don't just stay here lol

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:51 am 
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Did I just read Foota criticising Russia and China for interfering with a far away nation..?

:-O

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Did I just read Foota criticising Russia and China for interfering with a far away nation..?

:-O


Well that’s different. They are bad actors, and America is good. Or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 4:10 pm 
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I struggle to keep up sometimes...

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Did I just read Foota criticising Russia and China for interfering with a far away nation..?

:-O


Not criticizing.

Just acknowledging the fact that Russia, China and Iran "meddle" far outside their borders all the time. This meddling and propping up of autocratic dictators often creates death and misery like we see in Syria, Venezuela and North Korea.

This is a fact that the myopic America-haters never seem to grasp.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:37 pm 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
Holyman wrote:
Did I just read Foota criticising Russia and China for interfering with a far away nation..?

:-O


Well that’s different. They are bad actors, and America is good. Or something.


Want to take the Pepsi-challenge and compare the economic prosperity and human rights of America's allies compared to the puppets of Russia, China and Iran?

Remember when all of the Marxists pointed to Chile as something America should be ashamed of and cited Venezuela as the model? Last I checked, Chileans are't eating their zoo animals to stay alive.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the ... erica.html


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:
Did I just read Foota criticising Russia and China for interfering with a far away nation..?


Not criticizing.

Just acknowledging the fact that Russia, China and Iran "meddle" far outside their borders all the time. This meddling and propping up of autocratic dictators often creates death and misery like we see in Syria, Venezuela and North Korea.

This is a fact that the myopic America-haters never seem to grasp.


No, no.

We recognise that.

We just also recognise that the United States of America "meddles" far more outside its own borders, and props up far more autocratic dictators than those other nations combined.

And that means we disregard any of the hypocritical cant we hear from U.S. politicians; and the regurgitation of propaganda by blind America-lovers.

Is all.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Remember when all of the Marxists pointed to Chile as something America should be ashamed of and cited Venezuela as the model?


Not really, no.

But I do remember when the United States ousted the democratically elected President of Chile, on the first "9/11" in 1973, and replaced him with one of Latin America's worst military dictators (and he was up against some stiff competition in the 70's and 80's), Augusto Pinochet, who enjoyed unequivocal support from Washington throughout his barbarous tenure.

Do you remember that Foota?

:|

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

No, no.

We recognise that.


Right - just like you "recognize" that the Muslim/Arab world is hopelessly anti-Semitic, brutal, misogynist and undemocratic while you exclusively lose your shit over Israel.

There is never any examination that the US or Israel's actions may be in reaction to that of other nations whose motives are less than pure.


Holyman wrote:
We just also recognise that the United States of America "meddles" far more outside its own borders, and props up far more autocratic dictators than those other nations combined.
;)


How is that a surprise? America has been the sole hyper-power economically, militarily, technologically, socially.....nearing a century now. Of course we are going to have an outsized role around the world than countries who are still picking up the pieces of being stunted by Communism or Islamism.

And it is a damned good thing for the vast majority of humanity - not just Americans.

These results speak for themselves.

Of course you will say America gets no credit for these amazing trends, we just get the blame for the bad shit.

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 9:23 am 
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Foota wrote:
How is that a surprise? America has been the sole hyper-power economically, militarily, technologically, socially.....nearing a century now. Of course we are going to have an outsized role around the world than countries who are still picking up the pieces of being stunted by Communism or Islamism.

And it is a damned good thing for the vast majority of humanity - not just Americans.

These results speak for themselves.

Of course you will say America gets no credit for these amazing trends, we just get the blame for the bad shit.


Haven’t I always warned you what happens when you provide data to try and support your point?

I analyse it.

OK. Your first claim:

Foota wrote:
America has been the sole hyper-power […] nearing a century now.


No it hasn’t. Your timing is all out there.

In 1939 (that’s 80 years ago…), the U.S. was only just beginning to pull itself out of the Great Depression its speculators had caused 10 years previously. And it’s military capability was negligent, relative to France, Germany, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, Japan, Italy and China (in order of relative 1939 strength).

It took the massive Keynesian stimulus of the New Deal and re-tooling of the U.S.’s Industrial Base to create War materiel to sell to the belligerents in WWII, to restore the U.S. Economy.

And the U.S. Government used World War Two to accrue most of the World’s wealth to itself, by selling its military wares to its “Allies” in Europe.

By 1945, the former Imperial European powers were all bankrupt, having given all of their money (in the case of the UK, France and Russia) to the United States.

And of course, Europe’s industrial capacity was utterly devastated by the War and not in any shape to compete with the industrial output from a United States homeland completely untouched by that War.

And the first European nation to recover, was the nation that started and lost both World Wars, had all of its War debts cancelled in 1953, and whose reconstruction was more or less entirely paid for by the United States, which wanted a European bulwark against the Soviet Union.

And of course, the same goes for Japan as for Germany.

To emphasise:

During World War Two, the United States of America demanded payment from its “Allies” for every single bit of equipment received (the UK made its final Lend-Lease payment in 2005).

And when that War was over, the U.S. paid to rebuild the economies of the two nations that were primarily responsible for World War Two, and easily responsible for the most appalling War Crimes that took place during the War.

But even with that… The United States was still not the “sole hyper-power”. It was one of two Super-Powers. Wasn’t it?

Now you say that the United States gets no credit for “these amazing trends”. That’s true. Because it deserves none.

Think about it.

You assert that the United States was the pre-eminent power for the last Century. It wasn’t. But it was economically (not militarily or technologically) ahead of the Soviet Union from the 1950’s onwards.

But all of the appalling degradations of Soviet and Chinese Communism occurred *WHILST* (you claim) the United States was the pre-eminent power.

The Chinese don’t become Communist until 1949. And all of Mao’s shit takes place after that. And whatever degradations and depredations the peoples of the Soviet Union suffered (after Stalinism and World War Two), also happened on the U.S.’s “Watch”.

So what again was it that the United States managed to prevent happening?

Let’s look at your first chart:

Image

What does that show?

That there was a rather large-scale War taking place during the 1940’s. (Which the U.S. could not have prevented, but benefitted handsomely from.)

Then there is another massive conflagration indicated between 1965 and 1975 – can you think what that might have been?

And then again in the 1980’s, when the U.S. sets Iraq against Iran.

And you did read the key to the above chart, didn’t you? Did you notice that the yellow values indicate Civil Wars with foreign intervention?

Care to take a guess at which nation most frequently intervened in other Nation’s Civil Wars (and for a significant number of those Civil Wars, was actually the instigator)..?

So no, I don’t see that chart supports your contention that the U.S. has kept the lid on Human Conflict since World War Two. My reading is quite the opposite. Care to explain why your reading is different to mine?

Let’s take a look at Poverty:

Image[/quote]

I might be reading the dates wrong on that graph, but it seems to me to be saying that right up to 1980, a quarter-to-a-third of the World’s population was still living in poverty.

And from my own knowledge of History, I can tell you as a matter of fact that the steep decline in World Poverty that takes place from 1980 onwards, was more or less exclusively the result of 700 million Chinese being lifted out of poverty in the post Maoist-era.

So under its tenure as “sole hyper-power [sic]”, the U.S. was uninterested in reducing the human poverty that existed in its rival powers’ societies. (Which isn’t hard to understand, is it?) And by far the greatest reductions in Human Poverty came as a result of the modernising of China’s economy.

The second greatest contribution to the reduction in Global Poverty, incidentally, comes from former European colonies gaining independence.

What exactly was it that the U.S. did to reduce Global Poverty in the 20th Century?

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 3:55 pm 
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Still more people in living in poverty in China then there are people living in the U.K.

:>_


Luckily the U.S. opened up trade with China and helped usher in economic reforms transforming the lives of over 600 million people.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

Now you say that the United States gets no credit for “these amazing trends”. That’s true. Because it deserves none.

Think about it.

You assert that the United States was the pre-eminent power for the last Century. It wasn’t.


I love finding these little gems in your soliloquies. I may be prone to some hyperbolic exaggeration, but damn!

Face it, the Commies lost - and as the data clearly proves out, the world is a MUCH better place for it as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 5:31 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Still more people in living in poverty in China then there are people living in the U.K.

:)


You are off by a few zeroes Midnight.

There are over a BILLION Chinese people still living as peasants in 3rd world conditions. They have about 300 million (about the population of the US) living in 1st world conditions in the big coastal cities.

China has more Muslims in concentration camps than people living in Ireland.

All that killing Mao and the Commies did along with the 1 child abortion policy did a swell job!

Imagine how much more advanced China would be today if the Commies didn't murder all of their intellectuals and impose murderous Communism on the population?


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:31 am 
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March 2019 interview with Chomsky. At 90 he has all the facts at his fingertips. This should drive Foota nuts. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:45 pm 
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After all of Chomsky's throat clearing and America blaming - he seems to finally come around to blaming the fact that Chavez wasted too much money when the price of oil was high, did not build any reserves, did not diversify their economy and had corruption all through his government. For instance, Chavez made a big deal that he was going to send free fuel oil to the poor in Boston, Massachusetts of all places! I am sure all of the poor Venezuelans who have lost 30% of their body weight really appreciate thug Socialists like Chavez trying to help those Yankee dogs!


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:55 am 
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Quote:
After all of Chomsky's throat clearing and America blaming - he seems to finally come around to blaming the fact that Chavez wasted too much money when the price of oil was high, did not build any reserves, did not diversify their economy and had corruption all through his government. For instance, Chavez made a big deal that he was going to send free fuel oil to the poor in Boston, Massachusetts of all places! I am sure all of the poor Venezuelans who have lost 30% of their body weight really appreciate thug Socialists like Chavez trying to help those Yankee dogs!


Heh.

It’s called giving an Honest Perspective Foota.

Let’s break down the Chomsky video:

0:20 – History – Chavez in Office 1999

Short period where U.S. tests to see if Chavez can be controlled. He can’t be.

2002 – U.S. backs military coup in Venezuela, U.S. Media also supports it.

1:00 Venezuelan People overturn the coup.

Venezuelan People involved in the coup, including the Media, left “untouched” (unpunished).

1:25 U.S. turns to subversion, sabotage and Economic Warfare.

South American “Elites” feel the same way about Chavez’ ethnicity as many Americans felt about Obama’s.

2:05 Most important question: how do Venezuelans feel about their Government?

Throughout Chavez’ years, Venezuela ranks #1 alongside Uruguay in terms of popular support for Government.

Carefully monitored, free and fair elections. Sharp reduction in poverty; more inclusiveness in education and improvements in health.

3:30 Maduro Government – “pretty bad in many ways” – still has strong support.

[Interviewer interrupts…]

After Chavez dies and Maduro takes over; terrible policies cause serious problems.

One of Chavez’ errors was to not try and diversify Economy.

4:19 U.S. took over Venezuela (from British) about a century ago, because of its oil.

U.S. kept economy entirely dependent on oil; and Chavez didn’t change that.

5:04 Chavez provides cheap oil to poor societies, like Haiti and Boston, Ma.

But didn’t set aside any reserves.

5:20 Maduro has to turn to International Credit Markets, dominated by a hostile U.S.

5:40 As opposition increases violently, Maduro responds with “considerable repression”.

Meanwhile… U.S. institutes sanctions that are so extreme, even the Venezuelan opposition’s economists criticise them.

6:00 Idea of sanctions is to totally strangle the country.

6.30 Impossible to get a true picture of what is going on in Venezuela, because Media is so hostile towards it.

Credible (USAmerican) journalists provide a much more positive picture.

7.00 Enormous amount of corruption under Chavez.

7.10 Were Human Rights abuses, but not on the scale of U.S. and its dependencies in the region (Chomsky protested Venezuelan rebuses).

7.30 Contrary to [propaganda], Venezuela is *NOT* a Socialist country: Capital is free; and citizens are free to enrich themselves. Wage labour continues.



You watched all that, and decided that Venezuela’s “Socialist [sic] Thugs” are far more responsible for Venezuela’s current problems, than the United States’ thugs.

Coupla questions:

1) If the U.S. is really, genuinely, seriously concerned about the welfare of Venezuelans – out of a genuine sense of compassion, or because of fears about increased immigration to the U.S. – why doesn’t it just suspend the Economic Sanctions that are clearly not doing anything to undermine Maduro’s popularity in Venzuela?

2) What do you think about my contention that the U.S. *MUST* take control of Venezuela’s oil reserves, to prevent sale of same in anything other than U.S. Dollars, and therefore hastening the collapse of the United States?

(‘Cos you don’t seem to have touched that point – which I personally feel is quite crucial to understanding what is going on in Venezuela…)

As ever: I eagerly await your considered response.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:57 am 
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Holyman wrote:
Heh.

It’s called giving an Honest Perspective Foota.


:D


Heh, I knew YOU'D get it. =D>

(Edit: Also, thanks, you saved me an awful lot of typing).

See Foota, Chomsky calls it as he sees it and if he's not sure, he says so. That's why I said it would drive you nuts, precisely because neither Chomsky (nor HM for that matter) deal in knee-jerk partisanship, like some around here I could mention, but rather thoughtful, honest appraisal. So NC's not all on-board with what's going on in Valenzuela, just because they are trying to dress it up as "socialism" (which it sure as shit isn't).

Pity it took HM to point that out to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Major General
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Why it's almost as if taking a partisan view and sticking rigidly to it even in the face of evidence to the contrary isn't a good path to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Venezuela: Revolt!
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 3:22 pm 
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Holyman
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Certainly not a good path.

But an easy, lazy one.

>&8~

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"“A rising share of the goods that make today’s capitalist economies grow would not sell if people dreamed other dreams than they do—which makes understanding, developing and controlling their dreams a fundamental concern of political economy in advanced-capitalist society.”" - Wolfgang Streeck


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