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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:00 am 
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Htown0666 wrote:
We just need to stop making so many people


Tell that to the Mormons.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:04 am 
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Htown0666 wrote:
We just need to stop making so many people



That's what abortions are for.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:16 am 
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barcelona wrote:
Htown0666 wrote:
We just need to stop making so many people



That's what abortions are for.



and Stukas


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:48 am 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
barcelona wrote:
Htown0666 wrote:
We just need to stop making so many people



That's what abortions are for.



and Stukas




Only the ones with droppable bombs........


Do you have droppable bombs?

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:51 am 
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Drinking a Barcelona beer right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:05 am 
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PBFMullethunter wrote:
Drinking a Barcelona beer right now.

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Probably the best beer.......... In the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:
If the U.S. Government pursues so-called "Green" initiatives, as many other developed and developing nations are now doing, there is the opportunity to create whole new economic sectors and the jobs that go with them.


How is that working out for France? Those riots look pretty bad IMO. Or are we to believe these are just standard run of the mill Islamist inspired riots in Paris? What are they so pissed off about HM?
.....
As we see in Paris - it is not an easy sell.


Holy shit, just checked Twitter and realised you're getting this straight from Trump and Fox.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Foota wrote:
Holyman wrote:
If the U.S. Government pursues so-called "Green" initiatives, as many other developed and developing nations are now doing, there is the opportunity to create whole new economic sectors and the jobs that go with them.


How is that working out for France? Those riots look pretty bad IMO. Or are we to believe these are just standard run of the mill Islamist inspired riots in Paris? What are they so pissed off about HM?
.....
As we see in Paris - it is not an easy sell.


Holy shit, just checked Twitter and realised you're getting this straight from Trump and Fox.


Huh? I believe I wrote that a week ago.

Those fuckers are following me!


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:13 pm 
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All conservative memes lead to Foota.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:53 am 
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Love the part about needing to burn CO2 in order to get GDP up in order for people to give a fuck about the environment...really lends credence to both arguments of the climate debate. If you're not watching Jordan I highly recommend...

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:01 am 
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tgrant wrote:
Love the part about needing to burn CO2 in order to get GDP up in order for people to give a fuck about the environment...


It makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
tgrant wrote:
Love the part about needing to burn CO2 in order to get GDP up in order for people to give a fuck about the environment...


It makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it too much.



Point being if you raise the GDP of a country to about 5k a year per person the education/intelligence of the population goes up. As intelligence rises so too does awareness of the importance of environmental protectionism...pollution control. People become more environmentally conscious. This supports some of the notions coming out of Paris in regards to allowing poorer nations raise their GDP by burning higher amounts of fossil fuels because once their GDP goes up they develop better education systems which foster a more intelligent population which...gives a fuck about the environment. To counter that we need to reign ourselves in as we are already aware of the many shitty impacts that pollution brings about. We may argue over their severity and the time scales but everyone (that's got a brain) agrees that polluting the environment is not an ideal practice and should be constantly reduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Have been following some of the debate around the “Green New Deal”…

Can’t say it looks very promising, even if it does become a Reality. Seems to be relying more or less exclusively on Economic policies to save us all.

But listening to those protesting that ensuring the Planet can support Human Life is going to cost too much money, got me thinking.

(In a Capitalist-y kind of a way too..!!)

When I’m listening to Chief Executives (and their underlings) bitch about all the things they believe are stopping them from becoming the next Bill Gates, top of the list is always staffing costs. The greedy and insatiable demands of their workforce…

But second on the list is usually Energy Costs.

Businesses pay a lot for their Energy; because they use so much of it.

For example, with a Global enterprise employing say 50,000 people in major cities around the World, you can pretty much guarantee that at least 40,000 personal computers are going to be left running 24-hours a day.

And infrastructure technology (servers, switches, routers &c.), are all *SUPPOSED* to run 24 hours a day.

Now at the moment, with most Energy being generated by the burning of fossil fuels, businesses have to pay other businesses for their Energy… And that represents quite an overhead.

And…

Another term for “Renewable Energy”, is “Free Energy”.

Oh, sure, there’s the cost of laying down the original infrastructure; and then on-going maintenance of course.

But then, the cost of installing a solar or wind power generator, is considerably lower than the cost of installing a gas- or oil-fired generator. And as for the former being cheaper to maintain: fuggedaboutit. Solar Energy generators don’t even have any moving parts..!

So imagine some far off distant future, where every home and business is capable of generating all of their Energy needs.

And they won’t need to pay anyone else for that Energy (or worry about who is going to clean up the mess made by generating Energy from fossil fuels).

Can someone please explain to me why eliminating Energy costs will be bad for those businesses?

‘Cos I’m fucked if I can figure it out.

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:42 pm 
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Solar generators are expensive to maintain and repair. In particular the photovoltaic panels themselves are easily damaged and warped by excessive temperature changes (especially excessive cold), and assorted weather systems such as hailstorms, windstorms, tornadoes and more.

You might not be doing it everyday or every month but when those repairs come they make the average maintenance and repair costs comparable to anything else.

And that's avoiding the unreliability of solar panels. Photovoltaics don't work at night and they're very low output in rain and snow.

They can be a good supplement to a power grid, but are unacceptable as a primary power source. Same with wind power.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:05 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Solar generators are expensive to maintain and repair. In particular the photovoltaic panels themselves are easily damaged and warped by excessive temperature changes (especially excessive cold), and assorted weather systems such as hailstorms, windstorms, tornadoes and more.

You might not be doing it everyday or every month but when those repairs come they make the average maintenance and repair costs comparable to anything else. 

And that's avoiding the unreliability of solar panels. Photovoltaics don't work at night and they're very low output in rain and snow.

They can be a good supplement to a power grid, but are unacceptable as a primary power source. Same with wind power.


Yes… I think the problem here SG, is that you are talking out of your arse.

(That’s an observation, rather than an insult.)

Solar generators are *NOT* expensive to maintain and repair.

There. I said it.

Think about what you’re comparing it with: generators that create electricity by burning fossil fuels.

Are you telling me that a solar-panel infrastructure, with no moving parts, no by-products and no waste, is more expensive to maintain and repair than mechanical generators powered by burning fuel?

Pretty much the only thing that can go wrong with solar panels, is the photovoltaic cells lose their ability to convert light into electricity. That is happening increasingly less, as photovoltaic technology improves.

And if and when it does go wrong, the guarantee you get from the vendor you purchased those panels from, ensures they will be replaced at no cost to you.

As for the average costs of converting your home to Solar... Well lookee here.

Briefly, that site states that the average cost for converting a U.S. house to solar, is around $12-13k.

And given the average cost of consumer electricity in the U.S., it will take an average of seven years to recoup the investment (break even).

After that: all your electricity is free, non-polluting and much, much easier to maintain and keep clean than messy gas generators.

And regarding solar panels not being very effective at night, and in low light conditions…

You’re not the only person to have considered that solar panels don’t work very well at night.

And fortunately, that means that someone had a good idea about using rechargeable batteries to store surplus energy during daylight hours, for use at night.

So with that all straightened out:

Can *ANYONE* tell me why moving individual consumers and businesses to independent, free, renewable energy, which they don’t have to pay for and doesn’t create a lot of mess…

…Will cost them more money than sticking with the existing fossil-fuel based Energy infrastructure?

:-??

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:52 pm 
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I think the running PC thing is about a 10 year old problem. Most places are full on laptop now and employees are taking them home every night. Can't say every place is there but they're heading there...energy costs are one reason industry is doing it but business continuity would be another. I managed a ton of the projects around hardware refreshes and once it got to the point where the costing made sense and laptop prices dropped to be close to a desktop and monitor we axed all desktop purchases real quick. I can't imagine any company now refreshing into desktops unless they were needing some serious hardware for graphics or number crunching...and those positions are typically 1 off purchases. You're average grunt is fine with a laptop.

As for solar...it's probably getting there but it's not quite. We use battery backups to keep us running during power failures for the same reason you stated ...gas generators are a total pain. Not only for maintenance but permits and whatnot. You need a huge space to put them. But battery backups are easier and more cost effective to just charge off the grid than to put in solar and wind. ...wind requires permits and shit too. Also solar can be a pain in the winter...cleaning em (need professionals) ...if you put them on the roof you can fuck yourself too with ice daming...most businesses have a flat roof and they are leaky as fuck...they need to be torn up every 10-15 years or so...huge pain if you have panels. If you don't put them on the roof you need lots of space. Seriously, solar panels in snowy climates are a fooking pain. Best way to do solar in a winter climate would be a solar farm or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

Are you telling me that a solar-panel infrastructure, with no moving parts, no by-products and no waste, is more expensive to maintain and repair than mechanical generators powered by burning fuel?


HM - the part you are missing is that it takes a shit-ton of solar panels and windmills to equal the production of one standard gas or coal power plant. Let alone a nuclear plant.

Insane: Germany Will Need 3,000 Wind Turbines To Replace This Workhorse Nuke Plant
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca ... 0a78a21a4e

Have you seen a windmill up close? They are fucking huge. Just transporting a single windmill blade to the job site costs a fortune and is a logistical nightmare. And these windmills (especially the ones installed out at sea) are barely getting half their expected lifespans with all the moving parts and corrosion. So many of the rosy predictions on costs 10 years ago are not panning out.

Solar is great - but it is terrible for our electric grids. It will cost billions and billions to upgrade the US grid to handle the huge swing in production and demand.

Even now that I have an EV car and I live in a very sunny place, the economics of solar doesn't work for my house and I pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country in SoCal.

Solar (and wind) will make much more sense once we have good battery technology to store all the power generated during the day.

Battery tech will solve alot of problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:48 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Solar generators are *NOT* expensive to maintain and repair.

There. I said it.


Incorrect. Tgrant mentioned some issues with cleaning and rooftops.

Then there's the size, space and the panels themselves. I live in Colorado, in nearby Pueblo at Comanche power plant there's a huge solar array installed to provide supplementary power to the grid (not that Colorado ever had a power shortage mind you). It's subsidized by the state, it covers an area of about a square mile and generates less energy than just ONE of their conventional generators, nevermind the whole plant.

Repairs and maintenance are a pain and a big reason (that and cost of installation) why Black Hills Energy the local utility that owns Comanche and the solar array have yet to ever NOT propose a rate increase for electricity be it residential, commercial or industrial. (And people in Pueblo are getting mighty fed up with chronic rate hikes.)

The snow and ice as tgrant mentioned causes problems, problems that the conventional generators at Comanche do not have. Tgrant also failed to mention the dangers of breakage because of snow and ice buildup, a foot of snow or a inch or so of solid ice is heavy as hell and can easily break or damage solar systems. (Nevermind the waterproofing installation and maintenance if you just let it melt.)

Secondly there is chronic maintenance work on the wiring and grounds of the solar array TO PREVENT WILDFIRES. This includes cutting fire breaks into the prairie to reduce fuels that might be ignited, conducting controlled burns to keep fuels down beyond the fire breaks, disposing of wind blown debris capable of catching fire (typically Russian thistle aka tumbleweeds, that stuff's pretty much gasoline turned into a weed in terms of flammability) and ensuring the panels and systems nearby don't spark fires from dry lightning strikes that are frequent in the summer. (And yes the panels do get hit by lightning.) Despite all that, there have been fires sparked by solar and electrical systems before here in Colorado.

And that ignores the frequent hailstorms that chip, ding and otherwise beat them the hell up.

And Colorado is one of the better places for solar what with 300+ days a year of sunshine. Yet it still has all those problems and needs. Wind power here has similar issues and then some.

Residential and commercial solar panels are unpopular for many of those reasons. Hell the local school district in Pueblo has installed some but could only do and maintain so through state subsidies and state/federal grants and they don't produce much energy. And the costs of maintaining those systems exceeds the cost of maintaining the asbestos still present in most of the buildings. (It exceeds the cost of periodic asbestos abatement projects we do from time to time.)

Holyman wrote:
Think about what you’re comparing it with: generators that create electricity by burning fossil fuels.

Are you telling me that a solar-panel infrastructure, with no moving parts, no by-products and no waste, is more expensive to maintain and repair than mechanical generators powered by burning fuel?


The coal fired generators at Comanche Power Plant in Pueblo don't need to worry about cleaning off snow and ice, they don't create or risk wildfires, they generate an entire county's worth of electricity in a space a fraction of the size of the solar array and can do it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year (366 on leap years). The primary emissions from Comanche are water vapor aka steam owing to extensive scrubber technologies and new designs. Not a lot of carbon emissions come from there and it has been decades since there has been visible smoke from there.

The primary maintenance need is fuel mainly coal but Comanche has some diesel backups in case a generator fails or needs shut down. The moving parts are built to withstand constant use and are relatively easy an inexpensive to make, it costs more in fuel than it ever does for repairs, maintenance and replacement of generator parts and many of the parts are recyclable to be made anew.

The damage to the solar array caused by a passing hailstorm can easily exceed MONTHS of maintenance to the conventional generators in terms of costs. And hardly a summer goes by without a Hail Sale* inducing hailstorm in these parts.

* Car dealerships here have these things almost every year because their inventory gets dinged up and beat up by hail.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Yup sorry Holyman but coal is the way forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:42 pm 
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The human race: "I've created a way to harness the energy from continual nuclear explosions to power millions of homes"

Also the human race: "Shit, hail"

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:00 pm 
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So many of Earth's problems would be solved if we forcibly sterilized everyone, then gave them all brain cancer.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:00 pm 
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These are all very fascinating responses, but the original point was about it being financially more desirable to not pay anything for your energy requirements, than to have to pay.

Neither of the two of you have disputed that, because you can't.

And I'm here to tell you that achieving Energy Independence is a top priority for every business worth it's salt these days.

No, your only objections are around the feasibility of moving to individuated energy independence.

And I'm afraid your knowledge of current progress in Renewables Technologies is woefully out-of-date.

As the site I linked (and quoted!) above describes: it costs about $15k to install solar panels on the roof of the average USAmerican home.

And it then takes about 7 years to recover the cost of investment, and voila: the home is energy independent.

Hydrogen fuel cells, supplied with hydrogen created by solar-powered electrolysis is likely to be the future our children will be more familiar with (if they still have a future...).

Solar panels are unobtrusive, flat enough, and usually black. But having them visible on your home is increasingly adding to one's social cachet, rather than diminishing it.

As for businesses...

What? You think they *LIKE* being hobbled by volatile, unpredictable and unpopular energy sources..?

You *REALLY* don't understand why Energy Independence is so vitally important to any business that hopes to sell its wares to the Millennials"..!!??

How out-of-touch are you?

:-?

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

And I'm afraid your knowledge of current progress in Renewables Technologies is woefully out-of-date.

As the site I linked (and quoted!) above describes: it costs about $15k to install solar panels on the roof of the average USAmerican home.

:-?


Sure - it doesn't cost that much to install solar on your house, but you are not factoring in the costs to the grid to store the power that is generated (but not used) during the course of the day. The biggest problem with solar is that it generates electricity during the day when there is the smallest demand at home since everyone is gone at work. The grid can't store the energy and there is no sun at night when we have our highest demand for electricity when everyone is home, cooking, using lights and doing laundry.

It would cost billions to upgrade our grids and install batteries (that don't exist yet) to store the energy that solar (and wind) generates. People are working on it, but the tech is not ready yet.

Solar makes more sense for office buildings since people are in them during the day using electricity. Pretty much every new office building in the US (at least California) are built with solar panels. California already passed a law making all new home builders install solar..........and millenials wonder why housing in California is so expensive.

There is no conspiracy holding renewable energy back. Western governments have heavily invested in it offering all sorts of incentives. It is just a physics problem. When we can safely store energy generated during the day when the sun is out of when their is wind, renewables will make much more sense economically and practically.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:12 pm 
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Notice you still appear to be massively swerving my original enquiry..:

Holyman wrote:
So imagine some far off distant future, where every home and business is capable of generating all of their Energy needs.

And they won’t need to pay anyone else for that Energy (or worry about who is going to clean up the mess made by generating Energy from fossil fuels).

Can someone please explain to me why eliminating Energy costs will be bad for those businesses?

‘Cos I’m fucked if I can figure it out.


You're obsessing about what may or may not be possible right now.

But I ask you (again):

Why would it be financially bad for businesses and individuals - and whole national economies, I suppose... - to be completely energy independent?

:!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pollution
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Holyman wrote:

Why would it be financially bad for businesses and individuals - and whole national economies, I suppose... - to be completely energy independent?

:!!


Who is arguing against that? Everyone wants that - and when the battery technology delivers, you will see even more rapid adoption.

What people are not willing to do, is rely 100% on renewables when they are CURRENTLY more expensive and less reliable than fossil fuels.


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