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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:14 am 
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Htown0666 wrote:
Time for Trump to pick another justice for the supreme court
RBG is going to retire tomorrow


Please Lord!

That old bird will outlive me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:38 am 
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barcelona wrote:
Trump claims he ‘never meant’ Mexico would directly pay for border wall despite repeatedly saying it.





You murricuns have a golden president and you're buying it all... Fucking amaze ballingsssssss



Please show where and when he said “directly” :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:23 am 
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barcelona wrote:
Trump claims he ‘never meant’ Mexico would directly pay for border wall despite repeatedly saying it.


He obviously meant Mexico would pay for it via increased trade resulting from his awesome new NAFTA deal.

Which isn't in effect yet III/O

So in short he's asking for a taxpayer loan to build the wall until the deal takes effect and possibly (but probably not) results in enough increased trade that can be taxed to pay for the wall. How could you think he meant anything else? :-?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:06 am 
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http://time.com/5499188/mcallen-residen ... rder-wall/


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am 
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Trump campaign memo says Mexico should make one time payment to pay for wall.

Obviously he didn't mean it though.

Obviously.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 pm 
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Foota wrote:
Quote:
Image

That trend line certainly doesn’t look like a national emergency type of crisis does it?


That trend line only shows captures. It doesn't show the numbers of people who successfully sneaked into the country or abused the refugee policy and had kids. That trend line also coincides with the 649 additional miles of walls, fences and barriers that were built after 9/11. We also spent a fuck-ton more on border patrol and ICE in that period.


You’re missing the point.

Which is that no declaration of a National Emergency is warranted, in respect of the U.S.’s southern border.

That’s what we’re discussing now Foota: does the current scale at which human beings are illegally entering the United States constitute a National Emergency?

I know you think there are too many getting through… Porous borders… Bloated and inefficient bureaucrats… All that…

But do you think the numbers of people entering the U.S. illegally constitutes a National Emergency?

Because nobody with half an ounce of intelligence does.

And if we all agree that there is nothing like a National Emergency going on, with respect to the number of people entering the U.S. illegally…

…Then we must also agree that by trying to use his power to declare a National Emergency, solely in order to follow-up on a (single/any) political campaign promise, President Trump is violating the principle of Separation of Powers, which is baked into the U.S. Constitution.

Congress determines funding.

Except during a National Emergency.

Would you not agree that by calling a National Emergency, where there is patently no need, Trump would be violating the Constitutional Principle of Separation of Powers?

And if not, why not?

Foota wrote:
Do walls work or don't they? You can't have it both ways.


Problem you’ve got…

Is that you want *SOME* things to get through.

If you don’t want *ANYTHING* to get through, then a wall is certainly going to be your go-to solution.

But if you want people who are authorised to be able to get through…

Then you are going to need gaps…

And once a wall has gaps in it, it is no longer a wall, but a number of walls, separated by gaps.

Your computer’s Firewall is a helpful illustration.

Configuring your Firewall is all about finding a balance between security and ease of use.

Block Everything, and you are as safe as you can be. But you won’t be able to do much… ‘Cos everything’s blocked… But you *WILL* be safe!

Safe and bored.

Walls work *TOO* well, don’t they?

And what about the fact that the vast majority of people who are residing illegally in the U.S. today, who arrived in the U.S. legally, through legal entry points, but just out-stayed their welcome?

Trump’s Wall (if it ever gets built), will do nothing to prevent people over-staying on their visas, will it?

:|

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 pm 
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BUNNY wrote:
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:-bd

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:48 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
Trump’s Wall (if it ever gets built), will do nothing to prevent people over-staying on their visas, will it?


The very few times I find Fox or whoever reporting on an illegal doing some heinous crime they hardly ever mention how they came to be an illegal, and when they do it's always a visa overstay. Not a definitive fact, merely an observation. A casual Google doesn't reveal much either.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:50 pm 
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The U.S. Government could significantly reduce the number of illegal immigrants within its borders, far more effectively and cheaply, simply by reducing the number of visas it issues.

That would however have the side-effect of increasing how much money U.S. corporations have to pay to American workers...

So that ain't 'appenin'.

>&8~

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:15 am 
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Holyman wrote:
Walls work *TOO* well, don’t they?


The Idiot From CNN known as Jim Acosta found that out the ironic way Thursday.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:17 am 
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Holyman wrote:
The U.S. Government could significantly reduce the number of illegal immigrants within its borders, far more effectively and cheaply, simply by reducing the number of visas it issues.

That would however have the side-effect of increasing how much money U.S. corporations have to pay to American workers...

So that ain't 'appenin'.

>&8~


Given the trend of automating everything, work visas will be obsolete within 20 years. Pay raises for everybody else or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
Holyman wrote:
Trump’s Wall (if it ever gets built), will do nothing to prevent people over-staying on their visas, will it?


The very few times I find Fox or whoever reporting on an illegal doing some heinous crime they hardly ever mention how they came to be an illegal, and when they do it's always a visa overstay. Not a definitive fact, merely an observation. A casual Google doesn't reveal much either.



You totally mis the point. III/O III/O

III/O

III/O III/O III/O
:D
III/O

If they overstay their visa at least we know who they are. As well as some basic info and can contact their country of origin for more.

We know how many, or at least bit better count.

We were ok for them to visit or work here in the first place as they were not know criminals, and can refuse reentry to undesirables.......Hoffs big Bro is a perfect example of undesirable alien.


As far as illegals being better citizens, turns out that’s only because states like California don’t keep on purpose any statistics on criminals status as illegals. Federal prison statistics suggest illegals are a lot worse, then Americans. But we don’t know 100% because insufficient records are kept to make a conclusive finding.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
The U.S. Government could significantly reduce the number of illegal immigrants within its borders, far more effectively and cheaply, simply by reducing the number of visas it issues.

That would however have the side-effect of increasing how much money U.S. corporations have to pay to American workers...

So that ain't 'appenin'.

>&8~


The Establishment both Republican and Democrates love to have the flood gates wide open, they dont care if they overstayed their visa and have little interest in following up to find these people and sort it out.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:03 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Holyman wrote:
Walls work *TOO* well, don’t they?


The Idiot From CNN known as Jim Acosta found that out the ironic way Thursday.



lol, he smugly thought he’d spanked Trump hard but only proved his point.

Fox News and was he Daily Wire were mocking him all day for that :P

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:24 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Slacks wrote:
Holyman wrote:
Trump’s Wall (if it ever gets built), will do nothing to prevent people over-staying on their visas, will it?


The very few times I find Fox or whoever reporting on an illegal doing some heinous crime they hardly ever mention how they came to be an illegal, and when they do it's always a visa overstay. Not a definitive fact, merely an observation. A casual Google doesn't reveal much either.



You totally mis the point.


And I'm afraid you totally miss mine*

One of the aims of stopping illegals is to cut crime. In order to determine the most effective way of stopping illegals you need to know how they're getting in. If in a hypothetical world 100% of crimes committed by illegals were those who'd overstayed their visas then a wall isn't going to help.

Even when Trump uses a particular crime as an example of why a wall is needed I've never seen it reported how it is they came to be an illegal immigrant. Overstaying a visa, crossing the border over a desert, or smuggled through a legal checkpoint, is all information that would feed into the case for a wall. As it stands there appears to be a lack of information about this.

*

III/O III/O :D III/O

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:41 pm 
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Slacks wrote:
If in a hypothetical world 100% of crimes committed by illegals were those who'd overstayed their visas then a wall isn't going to help.



A wall is just part of it.

Another big source of illegals are Mexicans and South/Central Americans pouring over our borders and claiming refugee status. Most refugee claims are bogus and get denied. But our courts are so backlogged it takes months and even years to hear their cases. So we let the illegals free into our country while they wait on their court date and the majority never show up.

Trump got Mexico to agree to hold the refugees in Mexico while they wait their cases. If this is implemented well, that is a huge fucking deal.

And the triple barrier fence and wall in San Diego definitely stopped thousands of "refugees" from getting in illegally.

Here is a picture of the refugees storming across the Tijuana border last month only to be turned back by our wall (and tear gas) in San Diego. That is raw sewage in the river canal by the way. I've been to this very spot (escorted by border patrol and the international water omission) installing sensors on the south side of the levee in Mexico to measure the sewage volume and toxicity.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:41 am 
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You should build a border like North Korea's. Very effective and little concrete used which makes it more palatable. I'm sure the landmines and machine gun towers can be snuck in somehow.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:48 pm 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
If they overstay their visa at least we know who they are. As well as some basic info and can contact their country of origin for more.

We know how many, or at least bit better count.

We were ok for them to visit or work here in the first place as they were not know criminals, and can refuse reentry to undesirables......


According to research (you know, a.k.a. "Facts"), about two-thirds of "unauthorised" (illegal) immigrant adults in the the U.S. in 2016, have been living there for more than 10 years.

Image

Two-thirds Midnight, of all the illegals ruining your country, have been ruining it for ten years or more..!

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... n-the-u-s/

Why go to all the effort of shutting down the U.S. Government, provoking a Constitutional Crisis, building a wall that nobody with an operational understanding of border control supports, and spending all that money (from whence-ever it came...), just to try and further stem what is already a decreasing trickle of immigrants illegally entering the U.S. across its southern border..?

Surely it would be much simpler and cheaper to track down all those people who have overstayed their welcome, and eject them from the U.S?

If Trump's Government kicked out all the illegal immigrants it knows where to locate, this would have a more-or-less immediate beneficial effect on the wages paid to legal U.S. citizens. (Certainly more beneficial and more immediate than Trump's tax cut...)

And the increased tax revenues from increased U.S. worker incomes, would pay for the additional Immigration Enforcement staff taken on to deport any illegal that has been taking the piss for ten years or more (that's two-thirds of all illegals in the U.S.).

I'll bet you can't wait to get back to a fully legal Citizenry..!

[-O<

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
If they overstay their visa at least we know who they are. As well as some basic info and can contact their country of origin for more.

We know how many, or at least bit better count.

We were ok for them to visit or work here in the first place as they were not know criminals, and can refuse reentry to undesirables......


According to research (you know, a.k.a. "Facts"), about two-thirds of "unauthorised" (illegal) immigrant adults in the the U.S. in 2016, have been living there for more than 10 years.

Image

Two-thirds Midnight, of all the illegals ruining your country, have been ruining it for ten years or more..!

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... n-the-u-s/

Why go to all the effort of shutting down the U.S. Government, provoking a Constitutional Crisis, building a wall that nobody with an operational understanding of border control supports, and spending all that money (from whence-ever it came...), just to try and further stem what is already a decreasing trickle of immigrants illegally entering the U.S. across its southern border..?

Surely it would be much simpler and cheaper to track down all those people who have overstayed their welcome, and eject them from the U.S?

If Trump's Government kicked out all the illegal immigrants it knows where to locate, this would have a more-or-less immediate beneficial effect on the wages paid to legal U.S. citizens. (Certainly more beneficial and more immediate than Trump's tax cut...)

And the increased tax revenues from increased U.S. worker incomes, would pay for the additional Immigration Enforcement staff taken on to deport any illegal that has been taking the piss for ten years or more (that's two-thirds of all illegals in the U.S.).

I'll bet you can't wait to get back to a fully legal Citizenry..!

[-O<


I can’t respond properly to this as I no longer have a PC and it’s arduous to type it mobile.


No shit Sherlock you think 20 million plus just came over the border in one year. As far as them “ruining the country”.....well the ones that managed vote for the current crop of insane leftist politicians sure are. :D

illegals are a mixed bag, there is some good and some bad. My preference is a controlled system that immigration that maximizes the good and controls the chaos.

I’ve been grinding my teeth about illegal immigration since the 1986 Imigration and control act. So I’m thrilled Trump is actually trying to do something different.

The whole systems been broken forever, and it need multi tiered approach to fixing. Currently the Democrates are proposing a “Virtual Wall” it’s all vaporware. Building effective walls were in makes sense is rock solid strategy. Plus the Dems can’t unfund it once it’s built.

Furthermore all the top Dems including Obama supported bigger better walls a few years ago, there are compilation vids on YouTube of them calling for it.

They just hate Trump. Hence would rather see it all burn then allow him to sit on the Throne.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:49 am 
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
Holyman wrote:
If Trump's Government kicked out all the illegal immigrants it knows where to locate, this would have a more-or-less immediate beneficial effect on the wages paid to legal U.S. citizens. (Certainly more beneficial and more immediate than Trump's tax cut...)

And the increased tax revenues from increased U.S. worker incomes, would pay for the additional Immigration Enforcement staff taken on to deport any illegal that has been taking the piss for ten years or more (that's two-thirds of all illegals in the U.S.).


No shit Sherlock you think 20 million plus just came over the border in one year. As far as them “ruining the country”.....well the ones that managed vote for the current crop of insane leftist politicians sure are. :D

illegals are a mixed bag, there is some good and some bad. My preference is a controlled system that immigration that maximizes the good and controls the chaos.


Now hold on a sec… This discussion could easily turn chaotic, if we don’t keep control of it..!

Your preference is for a controlled system of immigration.

There is already a controlled system of immigration in place in the United States. If a non-U.S. Citizen wants to apply for U.S. citizenship, they may.

Anybody who is currently living in the United States, who is not a natural born citizen, and who has not been given permission by the U.S. Government to live in the U.S…. (or temporary leave to remain whilst their asylum application is reviewed…)

Is an illegal immigrant.

There’s no “some good and some bad” about it. There is only legal and illegal.

OK. So we’re on the same page now, right?

Alright.

Now because of the nature of Donald Trump’s election campaign, the policy priorities he declared, and the nature of his voting base, Trump declared that he would do something to reduce the number of illegal immigrants living (and working) in the United States.

‘Cos let’s be clear: *THAT’S* the actual job in hand.

Not building a wall, increasing border guards, doubling the number of ICE agents on the streets… Those are just: Methods.

The objective is to reduce the number of human beings living and working illegally in the United States of America.

Right?

A border wall along the southern U.S. border is just a (proposed) method for reducing the inflows of illegal immigrants into the U.S.

It isn’t the act of building a wall that Trump and his supporters want to see completed. It is a reduction in the number of illegal immigrants living and working in the U.S.

Right?

If illegal immigration across the U.S.-Mexico border was at zero, nobody would be supporting the construction of the wall, because there would be no need for it.

Have I made my point yet..?

It isn’t the building of the wall that is important, but reducing the number of illegal immigrants living and working in the U.S.

Alright then.

So if the object of the exercise is to reduce the number of illegal immigrants living in the U.S., the figures show that it would be much more effective to simply deport anyone who is living in the U.S. illegally.

The cost required to do this would be additional funding for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Agency. On more and better paid staff, mostly. But also on improved processes that flow more efficiently and produce more rapid resolutions.

No Government showdowns or shutdowns.

Just more funding for the ICE Agency.

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency currently has a staff of around 20,000; and an annual budget (2018) of $7.6 billion.

That is about 1% of the manpower, and 1% of the budget of the U.S. Department of Defense [sic].

It’s also only about a third of NASA’s budget… And NASA doesn’t even have its own spaceships anymore..!!!.

And it’s less than the $11 billion the U.S. Government spends on researching and supporting *RENEWABLE ENERGY*, ffs!

Now that Pew Research Center study I linked to above shows that despite a drop in the number of illegals living in the U.S., from 12.2 million in 2007, there are still more than 10 million illegal immigrants living (and working) in the U.S.

The ICE Agency is part of the Department for Homeland Security.

No Congress, regardless of whether the Red or Blue Team is in charge, is going to disapprove a DHS budget.

Trump could have just doubled the ICE Agency budget, for the same cost as his wall. There would have been no political drama at all; no government shutdown; and deporting illegal immigrants whose whereabouts are already known to U.S. authorities, would have a far more immediate and much more beneficial effect.

Spend $5 billion on a wall, and you’re going to have to wait until it is built, before you can get any return on your investment.

Two-thirds of illegal immigrants in the U.S. enter the country legally, so the wall won’t stop them.

Nor will the wall be able to dissemble itself into individual nano-drone-bricks, which will then seek out illegals living in the U.S., before brick-droning them out of the country, dropping them in Mexico, before reforming as The Wall.

So…

Why-oh-why would Trump go for his wall, rather than increasing the ICE/DHS budget..?

(And if you are tempted to suggest that there might be some political/popular outrage at increasing the budget/authority/intensity of ICE operations… I’ll just draw your attention to the political/popular outrage at the wall proposal and associated government shutdown.)

MIDNIGHT wrote:
I’ve been grinding my teeth about illegal immigration since the 1986 Imigration and control act. So I’m thrilled Trump is actually trying to do something different.


He’s not though, is he.

Building a wall to keep unwanted people out.

That’s hardly “different”.

In fact, I’d go so far as to say it is the oldest and most traditional method of keeping unwanted people out of your Society.

Societies and governments have been building walls for millennia, to try and keep people out.

I think the Chinese had a go at it at some point in their History… Didn’t work out too well for them though: their enemies just went around the Great Wall, if getting over or through it would take too much time.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
The whole systems been broken forever, and it need multi tiered approach to fixing. Currently the Democrates are proposing a “Virtual Wall” it’s all vaporware. Building effective walls were in makes sense is rock solid strategy. Plus the Dems can’t unfund it once it’s built.


Why not just reduce the number of visas given to foreigners?

If two-thirds of your illegal immigrants entered the country legally, and then decided not to leave… Reducing the number of people who are allowed into your Nation legally, must necessarily reduce the numbers of those who decide to stay.

What’s complicated about that?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Furthermore all the top Dems including Obama supported bigger better walls a few years ago, there are compilation vids on YouTube of them calling for it.

They just hate Trump. Hence would rather see it all burn then allow him to sit on the Throne.


You guys are so funny. :D

Look…

The reason why you have more than 10 million illegal immigrants living and working in your Nation, is because those immigrants will work for less money than most Americans are prepared or able to.

Your Government and the corporations that own it, like the fact that the presence of illegal immigrants decreases the amount of money corporations have to pay their workforce.

And I’m not just talking about the jobs that illegal immigrants do.

Everything cascades.

Illegal immigrant takes a shitty, menial, low-paying job, for less money than any legal citizen is prepared or able to accept.

That legal citizen still has to find work however. So they apply for the next job up the Shitty Jobs Ladder, and in order to ensure they get it (and can pay their bills), they also work for less money.

And so it goes… Upwards.

The scale of illegal immigration in the United States is one of the core reasons why Americans basically haven’t had a wage rise since the early 1960’s.

Image
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... r-decades/

And the reason why there is so much illegal immigration in the U.S., is because U.S. corporations don’t like paying U.S. workers a living wage.

It’s one of the reasons why you are living in such a Topsy-Turvy America at the moment.

The Republican Party is… Less coy about whose interests it serves. Despite all the schisms in the GOP, and despite Trump, the Randian principle that still unites the Party, is that Business Knows Best. And wealthy, successful corporations make for a wealthy, successful Society.

So the Republican Party wants to keep wages on the low side; which means it doesn’t really put *THAT* much effort into deporting long-term illegals residing in the U.S.

The Democrat Party are at least as compromised by its links to its donors (especially Wall Street); however, the kind of business sectors and corporations that support the DNC, are generally more “white collar”, and don’t depend so directly on cheap, illegal immigrant labour.

The Dems also have a fractionally greater requirement (than the GOP) to try and demonstrate some marginal increases in U.S. worker pay… ‘Cos… You know… The Democrat Party is “Left-Wing” and “Progressive”… (It isn’t… >&8~ )

So maybe that explains why, after two years of President Trump banging on about the perils of immigration and the need to build *THAT* wall…

Deportations under Trump are on the rise but still lower than Obama’s, ICE report shows

What’s that about..?!?

Trump… The most Nativist U.S. President since the 19th Century… Who can’t seem to get through a day without at least one tweet about the rapists, murderers and terrorists flooding across the U.S. Border…

Has deported fewer illegal immigrants than his lily-livered, snowflake, Liberal-pussy predecessor.

What’s *THAT* about..?!?

:-??

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:58 am 
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Holyman wrote:
I think the Chinese had a go at it at some point in their History… Didn’t work out too well for them though


Well that's not true because there are hardly any Mexicans in China.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Holyman
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I think Mongolians are the Far Eastern equivalent of Mexicans...

:-?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Holyman wrote:
MIDNIGHT wrote:
Holyman wrote:
If Trump's Government kicked out all the illegal immigrants it knows where to locate, this would have a more-or-less immediate beneficial effect on the wages paid to legal U.S. citizens. (Certainly more beneficial and more immediate than Trump's tax cut...)

And the increased tax revenues from increased U.S. worker incomes, would pay for the additional Immigration Enforcement staff taken on to deport any illegal that has been taking the piss for ten years or more (that's two-thirds of all illegals in the U.S.).


No shit Sherlock you think 20 million plus just came over the border in one year. As far as them “ruining the country”.....well the ones that managed vote for the current crop of insane leftist politicians sure are. :D

illegals are a mixed bag, there is some good and some bad. My preference is a controlled system that immigration that maximizes the good and controls the chaos.


Now hold on a sec… This discussion could easily turn chaotic, if we don’t keep control of it..!

Your preference is for a controlled system of immigration.

There is already a controlled system of immigration in place in the United States. If a non-U.S. Citizen wants to apply for U.S. citizenship, they may.

Anybody who is currently living in the United States, who is not a natural born citizen, and who has not been given permission by the U.S. Government to live in the U.S…. (or temporary leave to remain whilst their asylum application is reviewed…)

Is an illegal immigrant.

There’s no “some good and some bad” about it. There is only legal and illegal.

OK. So we’re on the same page now, right?

Alright.

Now because of the nature of Donald Trump’s election campaign, the policy priorities he declared, and the nature of his voting base, Trump declared that he would do something to reduce the number of illegal immigrants living (and working) in the United States.

‘Cos let’s be clear: *THAT’S* the actual job in hand.

Not building a wall, increasing border guards, doubling the number of ICE agents on the streets… Those are just: Methods.

The objective is to reduce the number of human beings living and working illegally in the United States of America.

Right?

A border wall along the southern U.S. border is just a (proposed) method for reducing the inflows of illegal immigrants into the U.S.

It isn’t the act of building a wall that Trump and his supporters want to see completed. It is a reduction in the number of illegal immigrants living and working in the U.S.

Right?

If illegal immigration across the U.S.-Mexico border was at zero, nobody would be supporting the construction of the wall, because there would be no need for it.

Have I made my point yet..?

It isn’t the building of the wall that is important, but reducing the number of illegal immigrants living and working in the U.S.

Alright then.

So if the object of the exercise is to reduce the number of illegal immigrants living in the U.S., the figures show that it would be much more effective to simply deport anyone who is living in the U.S. illegally.

The cost required to do this would be additional funding for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Agency. On more and better paid staff, mostly. But also on improved processes that flow more efficiently and produce more rapid resolutions.

No Government showdowns or shutdowns.

Just more funding for the ICE Agency.

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency currently has a staff of around 20,000; and an annual budget (2018) of $7.6 billion.

That is about 1% of the manpower, and 1% of the budget of the U.S. Department of Defense [sic].

It’s also only about a third of NASA’s budget… And NASA doesn’t even have its own spaceships anymore..!!!.

And it’s less than the $11 billion the U.S. Government spends on researching and supporting *RENEWABLE ENERGY*, ffs!

Now that Pew Research Center study I linked to above shows that despite a drop in the number of illegals living in the U.S., from 12.2 million in 2007, there are still more than 10 million illegal immigrants living (and working) in the U.S.

The ICE Agency is part of the Department for Homeland Security.

No Congress, regardless of whether the Red or Blue Team is in charge, is going to disapprove a DHS budget.

Trump could have just doubled the ICE Agency budget, for the same cost as his wall. There would have been no political drama at all; no government shutdown; and deporting illegal immigrants whose whereabouts are already known to U.S. authorities, would have a far more immediate and much more beneficial effect.

Spend $5 billion on a wall, and you’re going to have to wait until it is built, before you can get any return on your investment.

Two-thirds of illegal immigrants in the U.S. enter the country legally, so the wall won’t stop them.

Nor will the wall be able to dissemble itself into individual nano-drone-bricks, which will then seek out illegals living in the U.S., before brick-droning them out of the country, dropping them in Mexico, before reforming as The Wall.

So…

Why-oh-why would Trump go for his wall, rather than increasing the ICE/DHS budget..?

(And if you are tempted to suggest that there might be some political/popular outrage at increasing the budget/authority/intensity of ICE operations… I’ll just draw your attention to the political/popular outrage at the wall proposal and associated government shutdown.)

MIDNIGHT wrote:
I’ve been grinding my teeth about illegal immigration since the 1986 Imigration and control act. So I’m thrilled Trump is actually trying to do something different.


He’s not though, is he.

Building a wall to keep unwanted people out.

That’s hardly “different”.

In fact, I’d go so far as to say it is the oldest and most traditional method of keeping unwanted people out of your Society.

Societies and governments have been building walls for millennia, to try and keep people out.

I think the Chinese had a go at it at some point in their History… Didn’t work out too well for them though: their enemies just went around the Great Wall, if getting over or through it would take too much time.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
The whole systems been broken forever, and it need multi tiered approach to fixing. Currently the Democrates are proposing a “Virtual Wall” it’s all vaporware. Building effective walls were in makes sense is rock solid strategy. Plus the Dems can’t unfund it once it’s built.


Why not just reduce the number of visas given to foreigners?

If two-thirds of your illegal immigrants entered the country legally, and then decided not to leave… Reducing the number of people who are allowed into your Nation legally, must necessarily reduce the numbers of those who decide to stay.

What’s complicated about that?

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Furthermore all the top Dems including Obama supported bigger better walls a few years ago, there are compilation vids on YouTube of them calling for it.

They just hate Trump. Hence would rather see it all burn then allow him to sit on the Throne.


You guys are so funny. :D

Look…

The reason why you have more than 10 million illegal immigrants living and working in your Nation, is because those immigrants will work for less money than most Americans are prepared or able to.

Your Government and the corporations that own it, like the fact that the presence of illegal immigrants decreases the amount of money corporations have to pay their workforce.

And I’m not just talking about the jobs that illegal immigrants do.

Everything cascades.

Illegal immigrant takes a shitty, menial, low-paying job, for less money than any legal citizen is prepared or able to accept.

That legal citizen still has to find work however. So they apply for the next job up the Shitty Jobs Ladder, and in order to ensure they get it (and can pay their bills), they also work for less money.

And so it goes… Upwards.

The scale of illegal immigration in the United States is one of the core reasons why Americans basically haven’t had a wage rise since the early 1960’s.

Image
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... r-decades/

And the reason why there is so much illegal immigration in the U.S., is because U.S. corporations don’t like paying U.S. workers a living wage.

It’s one of the reasons why you are living in such a Topsy-Turvy America at the moment.

The Republican Party is… Less coy about whose interests it serves. Despite all the schisms in the GOP, and despite Trump, the Randian principle that still unites the Party, is that Business Knows Best. And wealthy, successful corporations make for a wealthy, successful Society.

So the Republican Party wants to keep wages on the low side; which means it doesn’t really put *THAT* much effort into deporting long-term illegals residing in the U.S.

The Democrat Party are at least as compromised by its links to its donors (especially Wall Street); however, the kind of business sectors and corporations that support the DNC, are generally more “white collar”, and don’t depend so directly on cheap, illegal immigrant labour.

The Dems also have a fractionally greater requirement (than the GOP) to try and demonstrate some marginal increases in U.S. worker pay… ‘Cos… You know… The Democrat Party is “Left-Wing” and “Progressive”… (It isn’t… >&8~ )

So maybe that explains why, after two years of President Trump banging on about the perils of immigration and the need to build *THAT* wall…

Deportations under Trump are on the rise but still lower than Obama’s, ICE report shows

What’s that about..?!?

Trump… The most Nativist U.S. President since the 19th Century… Who can’t seem to get through a day without at least one tweet about the rapists, murderers and terrorists flooding across the U.S. Border…

Has deported fewer illegal immigrants than his lily-livered, snowflake, Liberal-pussy predecessor.

What’s *THAT* about..?!?

:-??


On mobile, somewhat challenged to answer, so in no particular order.


Great Wall of China was in place for centuries. We don’t know how effective it was. Clearly not against some armies. But likely effective barrier for the average nomad as well as having a psychological effect on both sides.

Trump does want to change visa system he had a whole plan to create a point system and be way more selective but you all screamed “Hitler” so I’m not sure what’s happened to that.

Obama stat padded his deportation numbers by just having border control trun people around at the border and count them as deported.

Mitt Romney when he was running against Obama had a great plan, simple de-incentives, illegals by cutting off all the crazy benefits they are allowed. But Obama shredded him and with the media’s help made him look the the most heartless fucker ever.

This issue exist because the Elite both Left and Right exploit the situation to their advantage. I don’t think we have any arguments there we both have made multiple statements to this effect.

The true path to controlling immigration in Europe or the U.S. is not the insane UN immigration pact or what ever it’s called. Instead of allowing everyone to flee thier “Shithole Countries” is to assistant in making those counties places people want to live. Increasing their standard of living increases ours as well.

This...

phpBB [video]


Clearly easier said then done. Unfortunately


No sure what other points I might have missed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:45 pm 
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Holyman
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MIDNIGHT wrote:
On mobile, somewhat challenged to answer, so in no particular order.


Understood.

I've been Smartphoning-in a lot of my posts of late, since Holyboy 3.0 stole my desktop PC from me.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Great Wall of China was in place for centuries. We don’t know how effective it was. Clearly not against some armies. But likely effective barrier for the average nomad as well as having a psychological effect on both sides.


We know *EXACTLY* how effective the Great Wall of China was. The Chinese kept *VERY* explicit historical records.

The wall was originally constructed to keep the horseback-riding Hun from the Central Asian steppe, out of China.

And as far as we know, no horse ever successfully climbed over the Great Wall of China. So good job there!

However, it wasn’t very effective at handling co-ordinated human assaults.

The problem with the Great Wall of China you see, was that it was *TOO* great! (Lesson for Trump there, I reckon.)

The wall was just so long that it’s defenders had to be spread out along its length. Attackers simply chose the point of the wall that was furthest away from the nearest garrisons; knowing they could be up and over the wall (slaughtering a few token sentries), before the reinforcement battalions had even got their sandals on.

The psychological effect that the Great Wall had on successive Chinese Emperors, was not necessarily a positive one either. Many of the Emperors who reigned in the early days of the wall, behaved too complacently about threats from the “Other Side of the Wall”, because they put too much faith in the ability of the Wall to protect them.

Individual horse-riding nomads might have been discouraged by the fact that they would have to park their horses on the outside of the wall, and collect them after they had finished pillaging…

But unfortunately History does not record the number of people who thought of invading China, but when they saw the wall, gave up on their idea and trudged home.

And then of course there were the two other problems with the Great Wall of China:

The first being that it couldn’t be moved every time China expanded its borders;

And the second being that power-hungry Chinese courtiers and generals could sell out their Emperor to foreign invaders, and simply let them through the wall (issue an Invading Army Visa… - valid for 90 days, with a cap on loot?).

That’s what happened to the Ming Dynasty, which was basically destroyed because a pissed off Ming General let the Manchus through the wall.

The generally accepted Historical wisdom, adhered to by pretty much all National rulers after the original Chinese Empire (c. 700 B.C.E.) up until Trump, was that walls are good for protecting fortresses, cities and citadels…

…But basically useless for National Borders.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Trump does want to change visa system he had a whole plan to create a point system and be way more selective but you all screamed “Hitler” so I’m not sure what’s happened to that.


But everyone screams “Hitler” anyway.

In fact, I’d say there are more people screaming “Hitler” because of the wall proposal, than were screaming it even when Trump’s goons were separating immigrant children from their parents.

So I don’t buy that Trump gave up on his desire to change the Visa system, because he was getting too much criticism.

I’d say he was more likely educated by his advisors, on the link between illegal immigration and wage suppression.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Obama stat padded his deportation numbers by just having border control trun people around at the border and count them as deported.


Son of a bitch…!

But regardless… Turning people around at the border *IS* an effective method for keeping immigrant numbers down.

So shouldn’t you be thanking Obama?

One way or another, he deported or refused entry to more immigrants than any President before him…

Or since.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
Mitt Romney when he was running against Obama had a great plan, simple de-incentives, illegals by cutting off all the crazy benefits they are allowed. But Obama shredded him and with the media’s help made him look the the most heartless fucker ever.


Yeah…

Problem with Romney’s disincentivisation scheme, was that it was based on the assumption that most illegal immigrants wanted to leave their country of origin and travel to live in the U.S., because Life looks/looked really great in the U.S.

Whereas the Reality is that most illegal immigrants just have an incentive to *LEAVE* their country of origin. And having left their country of origin, there is only one place to head for. Because even without any incentives or benefits at all guaranteed, Life without benefits in the U.S. is still more attractive than death and suffering (also usually without benefits) in their country of origin.

You gots to go “Root Cause” if you *REALLY* want to solve a problem.

It’s not how enticing the United States looks that is drawing these immigrants north; but just how unpleasant life has become for them in their country of origin.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
This issue exist because the Elite both Left and Right exploit the situation to their advantage. I don’t think we have any arguments there we both have made multiple statements to this effect.


No disagreement whatsoever there.

MIDNIGHT wrote:
The true path to controlling immigration in Europe or the U.S. is not the insane UN immigration pact or what ever it’s called. Instead of allowing everyone to flee thier “Shithole Countries” is to assistant in making those counties places people want to live. Increasing their standard of living increases ours as well.


And no disagreement here either.

And that’s the point, isn’t it?

Europeans can’t really complain about refugees arriving from Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan &c., because they stood by and let their Governments turn functioning, if morally unpalatable sovereign states, into failed states that are havens for violent criminals.

Same goes for the U.S:

You can’t let your politicians foment coups in Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela &c., without expecting a bit of fall-out.

If you really, really, *REALLY* want to reduce the flow of illegal immigration, then you need to go back to source and try and bottle it up there.

And as far as the U.S., U.K. and France are concerned, they don’t actually need to *DO* anything, at least to begin with: they just have to *STOP* doing the stuff they are currently doing to those Nations.

Simples! Will actually reduce immigrant flows *AND* save money..!

What’s not to like?

:-??

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